Electric trainer advice

[aspr1n]

Hi all,

 

I am a newbie returning after some considerable absence, and could do with some advice.

 

For the oldies amongst you, my first plane was a scratch built "RM Trainer" from free plans in Radio Modeller magazine. I kept those magazine editions for years. Starting when I was 14, it took me 2 years to build it, saving up for parts as I went, finally flying it just after my 16th birthday - 6 years after the plans were published!

 

So, I have decided I am definitely all electric this time - the noise, mess, and complaints aren't worth I/C, and the leccy technology has moved on in the intervening period.

 

My chosen Sim is Clearview, and have a DX5i Tx plugged in and am practising, having a CV model for my trainer is a definite +5 IMO. (I don't get why the manufacturers don't create them for their models as standard in this day and age).

 

So...

 

1) Super Cub LP

It's a 3Ch bind and fly for 100 quid + my DX5i. It has an accurate CV model, seems well made, is robust and widely regarded. There are very good tutorials on converting it to ailerons, but not sure I want the build effort for a foamy I don't want to fly long term.

 

2) Chris Foss's Uno Wot

From what I can see the Wot Trainer was supposed to be an upgrade/replacement from it, but there seem to be consistent concerns regarding build quality and dodgy U/Cs of the Trainer. The Uno Wot would take me to 4 Ch straight away, was even tempted to lock out the ailerons for the first few flights. No convincing simulator model, and an expensive kit - £80+ before ESC/motor/LiPos.

 

3) Tutor 40

Is out, I can't find any convincing tutorials or recommendations for electric conversions.

 

4) Flyingwings V-Trainer

I've seen it recommended here in a number of posts, but again, no CV model, and no upgrade path to ailerons + extra build grief reducing the dihedral to fit them. Though it is brushless, the Super Cub LP isn't apparently.

 

5) An Other

Electric

4Ch upgrade path - 3Ch wing overs and loops gets dull quickly

Clearview/FMS Sim model

 

 

Your more experienced thoughts and advice are very much appreciated.

 

Cheers,

 

asp

 

 

BTW, I trained as an aircraft engineer, and am a qualified paragliding pilot, so my build skills and flying acumen should at least be fair to middling

[birdy]

Hi and welcome to this forum.

 

It would probably be good if you let us know weather you are going it alone or if you have joined a club. You should join a club because it will make the whole process of learning to fly faster and more enjoyable.

 

You should also join the BMFA in case you crash into someone's car and damage it or something.

 

Finnaly there is a special v-trainer aileron wing kit available, but personally I found it makes the model twitchy and not as easy to fly.

 

Good luck,

Birdy

[Tim Mackey]

Hi there asp - and welcome aboard - glad to see you have read the tutorials about inserting links

The "V" trainer which I often recommend to newbies is now available as an aileron model. HERE

Although not a pretty model, it is great for the absolute beginner as its tough and can stand a few bad arrivals, once youve mastered it, I can thoroughly recommend the ST Discovery high wing trainer.

[Tim Mackey]

birdy beat me to it...which is rare

[Allan Bowker]

Welcome to the forum Neil

 

If you can find one in stock, the HobbyKing Bixler is good value, however Tim's suggestion is hard to beat.

 

The Bixler is another clone of the Multiplex EasyStar.

Other clones can be found by the name of Clouds Fly, Wild Hawk, Merlin Condor, etc.

 

 

[aspr1n]

Hi guys,

 

Thanks for all your thoughts.

 

Firstly apologies, just found this thread discussing the HZ Super Cub and V-Trainer too.

 

Posted by birdy on 15/06/2011 14:32:10:

It would probably be good if you let us know weather you are going it alone or if you have joined a club. You should join a club because it will make the whole process of learning to fly faster and more enjoyable.

You should also join the BMFA in case you crash into someone's car and damage it or something

 

 

Hey Birdy - the "weather" will be.... British...... enough said Seriously - London/South East , wide open park land. By-Laws allow leccy flying, and no I won't be joining a club this time around - at least initially, but I will be renewing my BMFA membership - if for no other reason than to support the UK association.

 

Posted by Tim Mackey - Administrator on 15/06/2011 14:34:23:

Hi there asp - and welcome aboard - glad to see you have read the tutorials about inserting links

 

I am a software engineer so I would hope I had some forum etiquette

 

Posted by Tim Mackey - Administrator on 15/06/2011 14:34:23:

The "V" trainer which I often recommend to newbies is now available as an aileron model. HERE

Although not a pretty model, it is great for the absolute beginner as its tough and can stand a few bad arrivals, once youve mastered it, I can thoroughly recommend the ST Discovery high wing trainer.

 

Hi Tim, thanks for the 4Ch heads up - yes it was your posts I'd seen recommending it.

 

Perhaps I am being overly confident in my skills as I am not an absolute beginner, and have misjudged the videos on YouTube, but the V-Trainer seems to be rather more a toy for children than a serious flight model?

 

Do you know of any Clearview or FMS models for the V-Trainer? That way at least I can load it up and see how they fly?

 

 

Posted by Allan Bowker on 15/06/2011 15:18:03:

The Bixler is another clone of the Multiplex EasyStar.

Other clones can be found by the name of Clouds Fly, Wild Hawk, Merlin Condor, etc.

 

Hey Allan, yeah interesting that and the clones was one of my first thoughts, but again there was no convincing simulator model and lack of flying community pushed it down my list.

 

Both the Super Cub and the Wots seem to have a lively internet community around them, and I think that will make a difference (for me at least) going forward.

 

A simulator model is really a priority for me too - without one, I can't fly when I can't fly!

 

 

Hmm decisions decisions....

 

 

Thanks again guys,

 

asp

 

 

 

[Steve W-O]

I think the M e n t o r is ideal, the link is a useful one as it shows how it goes together and the videos shows how it flies.

 

You don't need to use the expensive Multiplex power system.

 

Phoenix has the Mentor as one of its planes

 

It is certainly not a "toy" plane, but is tough enough to survive most things.

 

I've added flaps to mine, put on slightly bigger wheels, and it can fly from places many planes won't cope with easily.

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Hi asp - welcome on board!

 

There is a fair difference between the Super Cub, Tutor 40, V-trainer on the one hand and the Uno-Wot on the other! Unless you feel quite confident you may find the Uno-Wot a bit of a handful at first. If you were going to be on a buddy it would be no big problem - because flying models is bit like riding a bike you'll soon pick it up again - but the first few flights will be a bit "interesting". So with a buddy I would say a Uno-Wot will give you more "growing room". But without the buddy I think it would be a difficult initial learning curve.

 

One more thing - while a V trainer is fairly gentle model don't be lulled into thinking an electric powered Tutor 40 or Uno-Wot would be the same - there's a lot more weight there and a lot more speed. Personally I would think twice about flying such models on open parkland on my own outside of the confines of an established club. They may be electric powered but they are not "parkfliers" in the usual meaning of that expression. And I say that as someone who does fly in a public park - albeit as part of a long established club.

 

BEB

[aspr1n]

Posted by Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 15/06/2011 16:33:25:

Unless you feel quite confident you may find the Uno-Wot a bit of a handful at first. If you were going to be on a buddy it would be no big problem

 

So with a buddy I would say a Uno-Wot will give you more "growing room". But without the buddy I think it would be a difficult initial learning curve.

 

don't be lulled into thinking an electric powered Tutor 40 or Uno-Wot would be the same - there's a lot more weight there and a lot more speed. Personally I would think twice about flying such models on open parkland on my own outside of the confines of an established club. They may be electric powered but they are not "parkfliers" in the usual meaning of that expression.

 

BEB

 

Hi BEB, thanks that's actually really helpful - and in retrospect obvious

 

That rules out the Uno Wot - at least initially. I don't have the time to arrange to BuddyBox up with someone this time around, so was hoping to use "parkflyers" to get me to a level of competency first, but considered the Uno Wot to save money in the long run and give me some growing room.

 

It sounds like it would be a false economy so a 3/4Ch Super Cub or 4 Ch V-Trainer it is.

 

I'd still like a Sim model though - the Aerobird Swift is as close as I can get to it.

 

asp

 

 

 

Edited By aspr1n on 15/06/2011 16:56:45

[Tim Mackey]

I wouldnt be overly bothered about SIM models - certainly not at the FMS level - in my experience, its hard to tell the difference between the various models

The "V" trainer can be flown quite a bit beyond the simple circuit trainer, and even slopes very well too. Its also friendly enough for your average park, and as I keep reinforcing it crashes without much damage! When your skill level reaches "A" cert, and you can land consistently without damage, then by all means move on..... just my 2p worth.

[aspr1n]

Posted by Tim Mackey - Administrator on 15/06/2011 19:18:40:

I wouldnt be overly bothered about SIM models - certainly not at the FMS level - in my experience, its hard to tell the difference between the various models

 

Yes I agree - the FMS physics engine does seem very poor, the reason I mentioned FMS was that I can convert an FMS model to Clearview. Clearview's physics is by all accounts very accurate.

 

The reason a Sim is so important to me is that whilst the other half watches Coronation St. I can get 30 minutes flying practice in! As I said, I really don't understand why in this day and age a sim model isn't considered as important as any other part of the model.

 

I'll have a dig around the net and see what I can find for the V-Trainer.

 

[birdy]

Sims arn't really that much like flying in the real world is why they arn't as important - You don't get the spacial awareness or depth and you don't behave the same on a sim - I wouldn't even try prop hanging in real life, but on a sim I'm happy to. They can't really prepare you for when things go wrong either - when you crash you don't care but in in reality when things go pare shaped how you react is important and a sim isn't going to teach you what to do.

 

And real life is far more fun - did I mention that?

 

Birdy

[Andy Harris]

How about a BritFlight Hustle?

 

Pretty strong for the inevitable tumbles, easy to build - no special tools. Cheap to run (1000mAh 3S) even takes a bit of wind.

 

The Hustle is good for all the basic aeros as well.

 

Andy

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Good suggestion that Andy - I like BritFlight's stuff, well presented kits.

 

BEB

[aspr1n]

 

Posted by birdy on 15/06/2011 20:27:30:

Sims arn't really that much like flying in the real world is why they arn't as important - You don't get the spacial awareness or depth and you don't behave the same on a sim - I wouldn't even try prop hanging in real life, but on a sim I'm happy to. They can't really prepare you for when things go wrong either - when you crash you don't care but in in reality when things go pare shaped how you react is important and a sim isn't going to teach you what to do.

Hmm, though there does seem to be a significant school of thought on here and RCGroups that sim training makes a real difference?

I guess if they aren't realistic it's academic, but if they are good for practice, then getting 30 mins in here and there is going to improve me more than waiting for an occasional calm weekend to get 2-3 hours in.

 

Birdy, you said you thought the ailerons on the V-Trainer made it twitchy, do you know how the V2 V-Trainer 4Ch compares? I can't find any pics of how the plan form might differ.

 

On a side note I have discovered it used to called the FIK V-Trainer

 

Posted by Andy Harris on 15/06/2011 21:59:22:

How about a BritFlight Hustle?

Hey Andy, I think I'd prefer a high(er) wing for my refresher trainer, perhaps their Breeze would be better suited.

 

 

Thanks again for all your suggestions

 

asp

Edited By aspr1n on 15/06/2011 22:40:28

[aspr1n]

Aha found a build blog and pics - thanks go to the Inverness RC Flyers:

 

FlyingWings - V2 V-Trainer and the build gallery as their link 404s. Looks like there is almost no dihedral at all on these wings.

 

 

asp

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Regarding sims:

 

In my view they are useful - and practice on them is worthwhile. Particularly for;

 

1. Orientation - you can "train" your fingers to react the right way round when the model is in in diferent positions relative to you. Very important for a new commer - a basic skill.

 

2. Co-ordination - the biggest challenge at all levels of flying I think is co-ordination of controls - in other words using more than one control at the same time. The average beginner is fine if all they have to do is work the ailerons. Ask them to use the ailerons and the elevator together and that's when the problems start! But you need to do that just in order to turn! Eventaully they get it. Practice on the sim can speed up this "getting it".

 

This co-ordination practice is the main use of the sim for more experienced fliers. Want to learn how to do a co-ordinated turn - now you need to use aileron, elavator and rudder together! Do it first on the sim. Want to learn how to do a slow roll? Needs ailerons, opposite rudder, then elevator, then co-ordinated rudder! And they all have to be just the right amount and faded in and out - learn the co-ordination on the sim.

 

So in short sims are a good way of training what musicians call "muscle memory".

 

But is it really like flying a model - mmmm, I would say the answer was "enough" for the practice to be useful. But its not a complete substitute. Even on the best sims I don't think the physics is really good enough to distingiush between models of the same basic type. Really they'd be more honest listing them generically as "types" like:

 

Trainer

Sports Low Winger

Aerobatic

3D

Very fast EDF

Twitchy Scale type

 

And that's it! Oh yes you can get an almost photo-realistic Extra/Yak/Sukoi/Edge but the reality is (to me at least) as a group they all feel very similar on the sim. Again you can get photo-realistic Pulse/Capice/RV8 etc. but they'll all feel like some sort of generic "Sports Low Winger".

 

So the way to use sims I think is not to worry if your exact model is there - just pick something similar and you'll get as realistic and as useful a simulation as you are going to get.

 

BEB

[aspr1n]

Posted by Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 15/06/2011 23:09:47:
So the way to use sims I think is not to worry if your exact model is there - just pick something similar and you'll get as realistic and as useful a simulation as you are going to get.

 

Wow! Thanks BEB - more great advice - which got me thinking more about what Allan said earlier:

 

Posted by Allan Bowker on 15/06/2011 15:18:03:
The Bixler is another clone of the Multiplex EasyStar.

Other clones can be found by the name of Clouds Fly, Wild Hawk, Merlin Condor, etc.

 

What does have a similar Clearview sim model from Gary Gunnerson - the Dynam Hawk Sky - another EZ* clone.

 

So I installed it into Clearview, and had an absolute blast throwing it around the sim all evening. Then I discovered this really interesting review from RC Powers on it too.

 

At ~£90 all in I think I might have found my plane!

Edited By aspr1n on 16/06/2011 00:42:03

[Steve W-O]

The Hawk looks quite good, and the price is attractive.

 

How long it would satisfy your needs for is questionable though.

 

I think that any thing under 1kg AUW is OK for the first few flights, or quick fun in the park, and many of them almost fly themselves with minimal guidance.

 

A Cub has lasted well over a year, and still going with my son who is 9 now, so 8 when he started.

He did initially put in quite a bit of time on Planemaster, which got him to apply control in the right direction flying towards him, and basic flying skills.

 

 

As for realism on a sim, I woud agree with the statement that many of the different look alikes fell the same on a sim, and on Phoenix the Wot 4 is a dog to fly inverted, but easy with the real one.

I had to make quite a few changes to the Mentor on the sim to make it match the real one.

 

A sim is very useful, especially for thing like cross controls on approach, cross wind landings, learning to use the elevator and rudder in rolls etc etc, and the most important as has been said, orientation..

 

 

To take an A test, you need a plane that weighs at least 1kg. You may not want to do the test, point is there is a reason they give the limit.

[Tony Smith 7]

Posted by Steve W-O on 16/06/2011 05:01:44:

 

To take an A test, you need a plane that weighs at least 1kg. You may not want to do the test, point is there is a reason they give the limit.

Multiplex Fun Cub could be just over 1kg depending on battery and motor. Mine's around 940g with a 2200mAh and a 3530 motor.

[birdy]

Posted by aspr1n on 15/06/2011 22:39:14:

 

 

Birdy, you said you thought the ailerons on the V-Trainer made it twitchy, do you know how the V2 V-Trainer 4Ch compares? I can't find any pics of how the plan form might differ.

 

 

I am afraid I don't know. If you do end up getting the V-trainer also know that the extra weight fof the 4ch wing means that your need 3s batteries with the motor in the kit. The wing also has no dihedral so it does't correct its self like most trainers. The v-tail can cause complications to.

[aspr1n]

Hi Birdy,

 

As best as I can establish, the 4 Ch V-Trainer is a completely flat wing - not even a few degrees of dihedral, which is very strange for a supposed "trainer" - I guess that explains why it was so twitchy!

 

As a result of that, the sim experience, and the rave reviews it was getting, I have decided to go with the 4Ch Dynam Hawk Sky over any other. It seems upgradeable enough to get me firmly back into the saddle for a Wot 'x' further down the line, and be loads of fun in the mean time.

 

It is certainly a shame, but it seems purchasing it + LiPos etc from the US even with shipping is still cheaper than direct from a UK store. Ce la vie - rip off Britain strikes again it seems!

 

 

Anyway, thanks everyone for their thoughts and advice it was much appreciated. I might post some pics and videos of my progress.

 

Cheers,

 

asp

Edited By aspr1n on 16/06/2011 21:09:27