Slope Combat

[Marty Ball]

Dunno about crepe paper, barbed wire streamers might be the way to go............

Seriously though, I suppose a set of small canards could be fitted to the Wildthing and suchlike.

Edited By Martyn Ball on 04/09/2011 21:26:08

Edited By Martyn Ball on 04/09/2011 21:26:41

[Spice Cat]

From DF

A deliberate act of crashing into another plane would be considered negligent in a court of law.

Probably not mate. It would be deemed as "intentional" which is a concept in English law given its normal meaning. As for reckless; there are two forms;

Cunningham, or subjective recklessness. This is when the person concerned sees a risk and carries on regardless.

 

Caldwell, or objective recklessness. This is where the person fails to see the risk that would be obvious to a reasonable person. The term "reasonable" was penned however before the invention of the Health and Safety officer.

 

A very interesting thread and a potential legal minefield. If participants enter the arena with the knowledge their models could be destroyed and intending to destroy others in their way; well that's the sport you have willingly volunteered for and fully intend to do. Hence I would argue that your actions are neither reckless nor negligent. The grey area again is where third parties become involved.

It's a bit like boxers entering a ring or indeed participants in any contact sport. The law on assault has specific safeguards for those participating in contact sports; otherwise the situation would be ridiculous as no physical contact is needed to affect an assault. (Section 139 Criminal Justice Act, common assault) Slightly aggressive chess players could be in for a spot of porridge otherwise. The grey area is where one enters the arena with the intent of seriously injuring his opponent rather than just stopping him and the follow on from that is if your trainer, or second had knowledge of this and agreed to this course; there would be conspiracy. (Unless it was husband and wife tag team). Anyone got a headache yet??? 

As I say, DF, a very interesting thread that has raised the odd hackle. I wouldn't do the sport myself mainly because I am no good at rebuilding and smash up enough by pure accident.

Regards.

Edited By Spice Cat on 04/09/2011 21:21:21

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Gosh I'm glad I only fly things with an engine on the front!

 

BEB - running back to his usual corner of the forum

[Alan Cantwell]

i have been looking for the BMFA rules on slope combat, but cannot find them, anyone have them? its a recognised branch of gliding, surely there are guidlines to follow??

 

for me, its the best fun i have ever had with a tranny in hand--long may it be so

[Ian Jones]

I can only find combat rules for control line (section 4 rules). Can't find anything in CAP 658 either.

[Marty Ball]

Just been trolling the net and came across this site which has loadsa good stuff but the page to which the link below will take you is the best reference I can find to "Combat Rules" so far.

Have a look Here

[Tim Mackey]

FF - PM sent.

[David Ashby - Moderator]

I've removed the talk about a specific discussion that took place, it's off topic anyhow.

 

 

[Lee Smalley]

you can be pedantic if you want but to me the ANO is about our behaviour regarding full size aircraft, as long as combat is between consenting slope heads i do not see a problem, if you push BMFA for a definitive answer then you are risking a definitive NO, carry on as we are and just make sure combat is carried out relatively sensibly

[Peter Beeney]

Do we think that it’s likely that eventually an insurance claim might sort out any ambiguities, if there are any, regarding the legality, or otherwise, of slope combat? With a now very tasty 10 million £’s worth of 3rd party liability insurance on offer if there was ever an opportunity to have a crack at it I’m sure there would be at least one legal hot-shot somewhere willing to try it on. I’ve no idea how it would pan out, indeed I feel it might take a brave man to predict the outcome, but I suspect the ultimate result would be binding; and might perhaps effect slope soaring in general, if not all of aeromodelling. With regard to flying on public land etc., just about all the slopes that I can remember flying on were indeed very much frequented, quite legally, by other folk; and with the advent of the recent ‘Right to Roam’ Act, who is to say that virtually any open area is now completely off limits? As a public-free area? I’m sure we all have our own ideas about this but from Spice Cat’s post, it certainly looks as though any court action, if that ever happened, could be interesting! Or, perhaps, completely bewildering!
Many normal power sites also have a degree of occupation by other third parties, our site, although it’s in the middle of a field, has the occasional motor vehicle, horse rider and walker, all within a very few metres of the strip.

And I have to say that I think the ‘aggressive flyer’ attitude has been there to some degree right from the start, too. Certainly when I first started soaring there were stories about a group of flyers that would appear and just take over the slope. This was now the old fashioned 27 MHz whizz stuff then, only 6 frequencies as I remember, although there was the odd ‘hard to come by’ crystals. One mate occasionally used Grey, I think, right at the bottom end; and he didn’t advertise this very much! Also the ‘split’ frequencies soon started to creep in. I don’t think these guys were actually ever quite accused of deliberately colliding with any non-member of the gang but I think that any mid-airs were generally applauded by cheers rather than apologies. I never became involved, or saw any of this, simply because I was never there when they were, and they travelled a long way, too, so it didn’t happen that regularly anyway. But the lads I flew with definitely preferred to be where they weren’t.

Like GONZO and Spice Cat, it would also be most unlikely that I would participate, the wilful destruction, particularly of model planes, does not seem quite right. Besides, I can do this accidentally, with the greatest of ease, and that means more repairs; however, I certainly don’t have any problems with anyone else doing this, each to his own.

With the greatest respect I hope this post is sufficiently benign to stay the course, the thread seems to be rapidly losing weight very suddenly!

PB

[Ian Jones]

Where do we go for advice, who represents us and who gives us a handbook read?

The BMFA.

 

The 2010 online version contains this information which does not itself answer our questions but it looks like they could do if the advice was followed:

 

(f) Specific guidelines for the flying of slope combat, covering models, flying sites and legal requirements, are available from the BMFA Leicester office. These contain important advice and information for the slope combat flyer and should be considered essential reading if you fly this type of model. Be aware, though,that this is a legal activity if carried out on suitable sites and with care taken to avoid the endangering of other people on the slope.(p.41)

 

DIRECTORY OF PUBLICATIONS

Available from the BMFA's Leicester office. Postage prices may vary so please enquire. Those marked * are free on request with an appropriate SAE.

..... Slope Combat Guidelines* (p.87)

 

Reference to above should answer all the questions

 

Hope this helps.

 

Off on my hols for 10 days now , that means no flying .

 

Edited By Ian Jones on 05/09/2011 11:33:12

[GONZO]

My only experience of slope soaring is of throwing myself plus hang glider off numerous sites in the UK and abroad. My stated slope trainer model of choice was a SAS Fusion 60 DS and as such is not eligible for slope combat. I need not off mentioned the conversation, people/place nonspecific, whilst getting people to consider the insurance and civil claims issue. It was there only to see if I could tease out some people.>>

Hopefully this has made people consider the potential insurance and civil claims implications.>>

Edited By David Ashby - RCME Administrator on 05/09/2011 14:05:05

[GONZO]

Many thanks to Marty for coming up with the document Guidelines for Safe Combat. I would urge everyone involved in this activity to read thoroughly, especially “4. FLYING SITE CONSIDERATIONS”, and take note. This document is out in the public domain and I have seen little to no evidence of its application in any of the slope combat videos and photos posted on line. We live in an increasingly litigious and compensation driven society and injury claims lawyers are around every corner just waiting for the next meal ticket. In the event of an incident resulting in injury to a member of the general public the lawyers would soon find the relevant ANO and this document with its recommendations. So armed they would be all over the errant flyer like a bad rash. Not just him, but the site owners as well in a parallel claim. You can be assured that the site owners faced with legal action would change things on the slope site ASP. This could and probably would go nationwide. You may think that this is so unlikely as to be not worth considering, your choice. >>

So, I think this answers the question as to whether this is a legal activity, it is. But, only if you do it in the right place with the right site controls and with the right models otherwise you leave yourself wide open to potential legal action.>>

[Ian Jones]

Are the BARCS "Guidelines for Safe Combat" the same as the BMFA "Slope Combat Guidelines" ?

 

I hope so.

[GONZO]

Ian Jones,

Barcs is a specialist discipline section of the BMFA and having just spoken with Manny Williamson he confirmed that they are the same.

[Ian Jones]

That's great news Gonzo because there we have it; the clarity which DF sought in the first place. Well done for making the call to Manny.

[Devon Flyer]

Thanks for all the input guys.

I think my query has been pretty much answered. Been an interesting sortie.

So basically, so long as combat is done on a slope with no public access and is properly regulated there should be no problem.

 

My new Wild Thing should be here on Wednesday.

 

Now...........who's up for a bit o' combat?

Edited By Devon Flyer on 05/09/2011 18:22:23

[fly boy3]

Nice one Gonzo. FB3