Resurrecting A Classic Matador.....

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

It would be an investment Chris

BEB

[Chris Bott - Moderator]

That can come once it's been proved to fly.
Mine's going I/C after all, and of course you know I'm all electric up to now.

[Danny Fenton]

well despite my belief that electric is the future, these vintage models are a look backwards. so to me it has to be the barking diesel I am afraid. if you want an elctric version thats fine, but if its being built for nostalgic reasons then you have to embrace the smell, the pain and the frustration. The good old ic....

[Big Bandit]

Hi Mike,

Last week I brought a brushless motor and ESC from Tony's Models and Hobbies for £12.99, very similar to the ones that Lee Damms has used. There good for about 140 Watts at a push. Maybe you could use your existing batteries. Like BEB says it's annoying to compromise, but my personal preference would be IC.

Cheers,

Chris.

Edited By Big Bandit on 16/03/2012 22:55:45

[Mike Etheridge 1]

I have just read the extra comments this morning and in particular Andy Gate's comments about my Chinese ammeter possibly not recording accurately. I did wire it up with old 1.5 mm2 single core earth wire including the parallel shunt links so hopefully this has not caused a problem, but then if 20 amps is exceeded it might?---I wonder what the specific resistance is of the cable?

It also occured to me that the Twinstar has an air intake and ventilation duct that runs from the front of the fuselage to beyond the rear of the wing platform. I did have trouble with two speed controllers both rated at 35 amps that would cut the engines not so much on low voltage but I assume on over-heating. The current speed controller has a heat sink which I can locate at the air intake point and has given me little trouble. The question is do all low or high powered electric systems need this provision as I have certainly have not allowed for it with the Matador?

I had thought of borrowing the Twin Star speed controller for a last ditch test with the geared motor but would need to change the Matador electrical connectors to the Multiplex type and make some provision for the heat sink. I would reduce the battery pack to nine cells

MJE

Edited By Mike Etheridge 1 on 17/03/2012 10:31:16

[Mike Etheridge 1]

FLYING REPORT CROYDON AIRPORT.

At last the Matador has flown!

My strategy today was to run the engine up to the 18 amp maximum the speed controller could contain and mark the throttle stick on the transmitter to coincide. I retained the 12 volt pack with a minimum trickle charge. The throttle movement this gave me was next to nothing but it was fairly obvious there was enough power to fly the plane. I decided to do a straight flight and not attempt to turn the plane. I met up with about 5 others flyers at the aerodrome and explained my strategy to them and they all agreed it could work. I gave the plane a hefty hand launch and low and behold the performance appeared quite adequate so I let it fly for about 200 yards before bringing it down. No up elevator or trim was necessary-----Why did you not turn it they said?!

After much discussion it was generally agreed that a higher rated speed controller would give more throttle control at minimum cost. Some of the flyers of course suggested yet again the lipo brushless upgrade but I think I will get some use out of the geared motor first possibly with a 9x4 prop?

Well from my experience i suggest all you chaps building Mattys with RC should set the wing and tailplane incidences to zero. Mine would not fly with the original wing and tail settings but strangely it had done so in the past without an elevator!

MJE

Edited By Mike Etheridge 1 on 19/03/2012 16:31:52

[Chris Bott - Moderator]

Hi Mike that's excellent news, congratulations.

I'll keep in mind the incidence advice.

Personally I don't think a higher rated ESC is the way to go. Assuming your current measurement is correct then I think you'll be replacing the motor every few flights if you run it at 18A. If you run it at even higher currents then I would think it would go pop even quicker.

So then, you'll be wondering whether to continue with brushed motors because you have a nice shiny new bushed speed controller.

I'd go brushless now. But still use the 12V pack. I think you'll find a brushless motor and ESC combo for less than the price of a brushed controller.

[Big Bandit]

Hi Mike,

Looking at what you are using ie 12 volt battery pack, with a motor running at 18 amps which equates to 216 watts for a standard Speed 400 motor , to me your using the motor at over twice it's limit (ask me how I know) so like Chris says it's not going to last long.

I've used them on an 8.4 nim's pack pulling 12 amps on a direct drive folding 6 x 4 for short runs while cutting the motor to glide around for a while. Considering the amount of flying I did with the thing which wasn't a lot, I burned out the commutators in 5 motors and that was about 100 watts.

Cheap bell motors will do 100 watts+ without breaking sweat. To me 5 motors at £6-00 each from Punci's (£30-00) compared with a bell motor ESC combo for £12-00 will do it for me every time, like this in one of Tom's laggers, it gets abused mercilessly and that's on a freshly charged 3s lipo.

Cheers,

Chris.

[Andy Gates]

Mike

Very well done, that is absolutely brilliant, I am so pleased for you and your machine.

I am still not convinced that you are really pulling the amount of current you think you are pulling, so I would suggest you get hold of someone who is local to you with a watt meter in their posession and you do a proper current test.

At least that way you will know how hard you are pushing your set up - you may find that you are nowhere near where you think you are so you may be able to throttle up more and have a reasonable flying session without damaging your components - and without further outlay.

[Mike Etheridge 1]

Obviously I must take all your comments in mind especially as you guys have had a great deal of experience with electric flight so please don't think your comments are wasted.

The comment on the failure rate of canned 400 motors was especially relevant as I would obviously encounter this problem with the enhanced running currents. The other comment about the need to check the current / wattage readings on the plane is also worthy of action.

It would be nice to get some useful time out of the Graupner kit but of course I have to accept is somewhat outdated. I think I need to look more closely at the brushless motor option and the possible installation within the existing cowling that may need adapting perhaps with a power bulge / air intake to cover any projection of the brushless motor.?

Thanks again for all your interest and especially to the guys that had the brain wave to build Matadors for the Greenacres event. It seems at bit of a distance to me the Midlands but it obviously did not put off my old school colleague who is currently managing West Brom but then I assume he is earning a few bob?

MJE

[Big Bandit]

Hi Mike,

http://www.brchobbies.co.uk/?page=shop&item=233

You might want to look at this, it'll get the Matty flying, if I hadn't decided to go down the diesel route it's what I would use.

Cheers,

Chris.

[Mike Etheridge 1]

Chis,

As you have mentioned before the price of the brushless motor combos seems cheap. I have quickly read the specification but did note that on a specific lipo type the recomnended model aircraft weight is 22 oz. The Matty weighs 32 oz complete with NImH battery. Are you sure the brushless motor can cope?

Just so I have got all options to hand I have ordered an RC carb for the ASP , but I stlll have thoughts of updating the electrical drive. I may carry out a couple of extra flights with the old geared motor set up. As I mentioned before no trim was necessary on the Matadors flight the other day but a bit of rudder work was necessary. The plane flew straight but I just want to check out the overall stability hopefully before anything burns out.

Best Wishes,

Mike

[Steve Hargreaves - Moderator]

The motor Chris lists above is similar to the one Lee Damms is using...I have a similar motor & can confirm that it will produce an impressive draft off a 3S Lipo....certainly more than yer average 1.5cc diesel & enough to fly a Matty.....

Given that the motor is good for 140watts & your Matty weight 32 oz or 2lbs then that gives you 70 watts per lb which will certainly fly the model.....these vintage models are often designed to fly on minimum power & glide very well so I've no doubt it will get off the ground in fine style....you would save some weight with a Lipo battery but this won't help if you needed to add lead to bring the cog back to where it should be....

I do have a slight concern that you might need to be flat out much of the time & there wouldn't be much left if it was windy.....the Matador is a pretty bulky model after all...it will be interesting to see how Lees model flies.....

[Mike Etheridge 1]

Chris and Steve,

I am quite prepared to take the financial plunge and order the brushless motor combo especially if they cost under £20. However I would still need you guys to recommend a suitable prop and any device needed to secure it to the motor shaft.

I assume if the next size of motor is used you then have to deal with a much greater physical size?

I could wait to see how Lee's Matty flies but that needs a deal of patience. How far has he got and are all you guys testing the Mattys prior to the Greenacres event?

MJE

[Steve Hargreaves - Moderator]

This will do you as a prop adaptor & an 8x4 is the recommended prop size on a 3S Lipo

Do you intend to use your NiMh cells? This will have a huge effect on the recommended prop size. The 8x4 might be OK on 10 cells but possibly a touch too big but will probably be too small on 8 cells....a 9x4.7 or a 9x6 might be better on 8 cells.....will you have access to a Wattmeter to check the figures Mike....? Maybe you could borrow one? One thing you will find Mike....with electric flight your collection of propellors will increase dramatically.....

You will also need some connectors to link the ESC to the motor & the battery to the ESC....I'm not sure what you use right now Mike but personally I use these Obviously you could solder the ESC/motor wires or (Gawd help us!!) use a chocolate block connector here but best to do the job properly & use the right connectors

The next size up would be a 200/220watt motor like this.. different but not dramtically larger...

[Mike Etheridge 1]

Steve,

Thanks for the latest information, I favour the larger motor and will order both the motor and associated kit.

I have been aware of the 'gold connectors' for some while but have stuck with whatever has been provided in my three 'almost ready mades'. This includes Multiplex connectors which have proved faultless to date. I would think the connectivity of the gold connectors beats the rest hands down though and assume you use heat shrink rubber insulation on them?

You have confirmed my suspicion that a deal of experimentation is necessary with propellors to a far greater degree than with an IC engine. Hence the wattmeter requirement and possible need for a rev-counter?

MJE

[Chris Bott - Moderator]

Posted by Mike Etheridge 1 on 21/03/2012 12:23:52:

Chris and Steve,

I am quite prepared to take the financial plunge and order the brushless motor combo especially if they cost under £20. However I would still need you guys to recommend a suitable prop and any device needed to secure it to the motor shaft.

I assume if the next size of motor is used you then have to deal with a much greater physical size?

I could wait to see how Lee's Matty flies but that needs a deal of patience. How far has he got and are all you guys testing the Mattys prior to the Greenacres event?

MJE

Mike one of the rules at Greenacres is that to fly a model there, it has to have been successfully flown before. So yes, any Matadors flying at Greenacresmac will have been fully tested.

Cheers

Chris

[Steve Hargreaves - Moderator]

Mike...the last motor highlighted was just an example.....it has quite a low kv so would need a very big (relatively speaking) prop....10 or 11" which might look a bit daft on a Matty....

This motor might be better....same "frame size" but a different wind hence a higher kv better suited to a 9" prop.

A rev counter is pretty unnecessary in electric flight......an electric motor won't "over speed" in the way an IC engine will if you fit too small a prop.....& if you fit too big a prop it will let you know by releasing the "magic smoke"....hence the need for a wattmeter....

Can I just express a note of caution & of frustration here.....the project seems to ebb & flow from IC to brushed motors to brushless to Lipo to NiMh & back to IC again without any clear idea about what we...or rather you...are trying to achieve.....with so much good but conflicting advise here I fear we are in danger of not offering the best advise. I've said it before & I'll say it again.....what are you wanting to achieve other than to fly the Matador?

Do you want to electrify it? If so do you want to use your old batteries? If so how many cells? If not will you go for a Lipo? Will you have a wattmeter so you can test the set up?

Lots & lots of questions all of which will have an effect on the final outcome & set up...particularly the prop used.

Can I suggest you reflect for a moment on what has been discussed so far & think about what a successful outcome looks like TO YOU & how you would like to achieve it. After all this is a hobby & we all look to get different things out of it....playing around & experimenting is a big part of it so don't let me put you off......however I think I speak for all of us on the forum when I say we want to offer the very best help & advise we can but this is getting increasingly difficult as the goal posts continually move around.....

[Mike Etheridge 1]

Steve,

I have to agree there seems to be a number of solutions to power the Matador with the fall back to IC always available. Once I have directed myself towards IC then others come up with the electric solutions which I cannot dismiss. One thing I have not done so far is to try to offer up a brushless motor to the existing cowling and see what the implications are in terms of providing a bulkhead support. So rather than order a brushless combo via the internet it might be best as I have sugested before to go with the plane to my nearest model shop Avicraft where they can offer advice and have a number of motors in stock. I could make a list of the suggestions made on this forum so that I have not ignored everyones advice. This may not be the cheapest route to success though.

The option of retaining my 10no batteries of ratings 8.4 volts,9.6volts and 1no 12 volt battery seems desirable at this time. The greater majority of the newer batteries are 9.6 volts

I must admit this situation is becoming worse than shopping for a pair of shoes with my wife.

Sorry about the frustration-I will let you know my next positive move!!

MJE

[Mike Etheridge 1]

I have now contacted BRC Models by E-mail with a view to purchasing the EMax BL2215 220 and a suitable speed controller. I am waiting for a response from BRC.

I have checked the specification of the E Max motor and it seems to satisfy all the requirements for the Matador including the model weight.---thanks Steve.

The other motor combo proposed by Chris and Lee would appear to be able to power the plane so I am surprised by the recommended maximum model weight at 22oz?

Assuming the overall power produced by my geared motor on the plane's recent flight to be 12v x 18 amp=216 watts which includes 50 watts of 'no-load' wasted power, then the usefull watts must have equated to 166 watts which is only about 21 watts in excess of the combo's maximum rating of 145 watts. However as the E-MAX motor produces up to 220 watts depending on the applied voltage it appears there will be up to 50 watts of additional power with very little motor losses.

Physically the E Max motor will fit between the existing engine bearers so it must be possible I hope to set the motor at the original thrust line I hope?

MJE

Edited By Mike Etheridge 1 on 22/03/2012 19:55:36

[Mike Etheridge 1]

Brushless motor and controller ordered from BRC Models last weekend.

Second test flight of Matador with geared motor is proposed for tomorrow at Bartons Point Sheerness,Kent. Club member Peter Bruce who has produced many videos on 'You Tube' has agreed to video the Matador which I hope will do a complete flight without damage!

MJE

[Mike Etheridge 1]

Brushless motor and controller have arrived.

Second test flight with geared motor completed at Bartons point---video to follow.

The flight lasted 3.5 minutes before I terminated it with a dead stick landing opposite the flight line. The flight was in fact a second attempt which needed a bit more thrust than the first. The plane gained a reasonable amount of height and it's flight was 'snappy' as opposed to 'smooth' compared with the Junior and Super 60's. Landing was very easy and I am begining to accept Ben Buckle's claims that it's a stable plane that is easy to fly.

Club members suggested that the plane seemed to be operating on it's maximum limit which of course it was. A battery test after the flight indicated that there was 90% capacity left in the cells so other flights would have been possible.

I am begining to wonder why I ordered the brushless motor after all the Matador won't stand on its prop or will it with a brushless???

Full conclusion to part one of the experiment and full details of the construction modifications to follow.

Thanks again to the new Matty builders----just remember the mods to the wing incidence and the 30% C of G location which on my plane is directly under the wing lower spar and ahead of Ben Buckles 33%

MJE

[Mike Etheridge 1]

BARTONS POINT VIDEO OF MERCURY MATADOR:

I understand the video took all night to upload as the broadband service on Sheerness Island is very poor.

Of course the Matador is an original and not a Ben Buckle version as Peter suggests. As for the old boy launching the plane it surely can't be me?

Only one landing was captured due to glare from the sun.

MJE

Matador Video

 

 

Edited By Chris Bott - Moderator on 28/03/2012 10:31:03

[Chris Bott - Moderator]

Here you go Mike is this the video?

Nice vid by the way and matty seems to go well.

[Steve Hargreaves - Moderator]

Hoorayy....she flies....well done Mike....good video too.....I particularly liked the hand launch....the model actually seemed to slow down AFTER you'd launched it........maybe a late entry in the Olympic Javelin event beckons.....

What battery did you use in this one Mike.....it all seemed to go very well?

What happens now? Keep her as she is or are you going to go brushless/LiPo for some hot doggin' 3D action as I believe it is called....