what cert is needed to fly a turbine solo

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Stu,

Didn't Gary say:

the turbine pilot wants to take his A test ...he was told he could not because his model did not meet the weight limit 1kg by the examiner.....which it does meet the weight limit max thrust riot.

I take it from this that the model presented was over 1kg.

i was then annoyed because the examiner told the turbine pilot this then proceeded to to test another pilot on a smaller craft to which the other pilot passed..

I take it from this that the model presented successfully for a test weighed less than the one ruled uncompliant.

Anyway, I think that the OP's question has been answered to his satisfaction and we're pretty much all in agreement generally.

Edited By Martin Harris on 15/06/2012 15:04:13

[gary132]

Hi stu no offence taken.

if i can clearly state what i meant about the model weight.

the model presented for test was a max thrust riot. it was not inspected by the examiner he simply looked at it and said it is not heavy enough and i blelieve he said it should weigh 4kg.

he then did a test with another pilot with a slightly lighter plane than the one presented.

the one used in the test was just over 1kg without lipo.

[Daithi O Buitigh]

To me what the examiner thinks a model should weigh isn't relevant as there is no maximum weight stipulated in the handbook. All that is said there is "...The minimum weight of a model used to take the test is 1 kg (2.2 lbs.) without fuel but with batteries..." - nothing about whether it should weigh 4 kg or not.

I'd have been tempted to return with a set of scales

However, the A cert for electric powered models doesn't have that minimum weight restriction - the above is for ic powered flight

Edited By Daithi O Buitigh on 15/06/2012 20:28:56

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Daithi - I believe that the 1kg minimum weight limit does apply to electric models taking the "Fixed Wing" A cert, which is the context we are discussing here. It may not apply to electric gliders taking the "Slient Flight" A test (I don't know as I am not familiar with the test), but that isn't the case here. Here we are discussing a "conventional" fixed wing model aeroplane - in which case it must weigh in at over 1kg - ic or electric. Though the electric is allowed to include its battery.

BEB

[gary132]

well it looks like committee members have settled the issue of the jets flying but i am still asking what is going to happen about the examiner that seems to make his own rules.

at present i am getting no response.

and he stated he thought the model for A test had to be over 4kg

" he thought " shouldn't he know. it's 1kg.

another question. if a new member joined your club and was deaf.

as an instructor and examiner would you try to teach him somehow to fly safely .

or would you get rid of him some how.....?

?

the rule book does state we are not allowed to discriminate against disabled.

i fear this question will open a can of worms but i had to ask it.

[Olly P]

Find a way. pre planned training program on flights, with a visual ho of control.

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

You should try and explore if there is some way it can be made to work. The best plan would be to sit down with the deaf person and ask them how they have done similar things. For example how did they go about learning to drive?

Very often where there is a will, there is a way.

But just to be clear on one point. The law does not say that you must not discriminate against disabled people. It says you must not unfairly discriminate. The law also recognises that clubs, societies, churches etc. have finite resources. So again you are required to take "reasonable" steps to accomodate someone who is disabled.

To give some examples:

1. If someone came with a disability such that after careful discussion and consultation it was obvious that there was no possible way that the person concerned could be taught to fly safely, it is perfectly legal for you to refuse them a flying membership. This is not unfair discrimination.

2. If a disabled person would require modifications and building work to your flying site that would cost many ten of thousands, or even hundreds of thousands, of pounds and the total assets of your club where, say, one thousand pounds, then again you could legally decline a flying membership on the grounds that the changes required are not reasonabale.

But if a safe way can be found and if any accomodations are within the reasonable expenditure profile of the club - then yes you would be guilty of unfair discrimination if you were to refuse, or constructively remove, such an individual.

BEB

[gary132]

i thought standing next to him and touching each shoulder or his head to indicate the direction i wanted him to go ....but it never arose

he didn't return....i did hear his wife rang up complaining.

[Daithi O Buitigh]

BEB - I agree the minimum weight for ic power is 1 kg with no other recommendation (certainly not "I think that should weigh 4 kg" - however that doesn't appear in the electric/silent flight manual - all that says is:

"...The test can be performed with virtually any Electric Powered Glider model, but not an Electric Powered Sports model as the Powered Flight 'A' Certificate would be more appropriate to that type of model...." and

"...Remember the use of a "suitable model" is the candidate's responsibility and so it is their decision whether to attempt the test. For example a fast flying Hot-liner style may easily cope with a day which would be impossible with a simple lightweight Rudder/Elevator design...."

Nothing about a minimum weight anywhere in it unless it's a 'sports' model (which, to me, is a bit woolly and wide open for interpretation )

[Codename-John]

There`s a deaf member at my club and he flies excellently, although I dont know how he was taught because he was there before me, but obviously there is a way. If he doesnt lip read, perhaps if his wife uses sign language she could act as interpreter, if your on the buddy box, you take control while he looks at her for your directions ?

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

HI Daighti - you may well be right and the silent flight test doesn't specify a minimum. Where I think the confusion arises is that "Silent Flight" does not cover electric powered aeroplanes - only electric powered gliders. The term "Electric/Silent Flight" as far as I am aware does not mean "Electric power or glider". Electric power planes are to be examined under the same rules as IC - ie the Fixed Wing test, that has a 1Kg limit.

So, if the student has say a Riot - as this guy did - then he gets the "Fixed Wing" test - not the "Silent Flight" test, despite the fact that its electric powered and so the 1Kg limit does apply.

BEB

[Daithi O Buitigh]

Yep - that's how I read it. The hiccup is the guy who flies foamies and/or park fliers in that he probably doesn't have a model that reaches the minimum weight stated. To me that means he needs to go buy or borrow a new model just for the test, despite the fact he may never use it again.

To me the whole thing on electric needs to be thought out again (but the examiner was still wrong with his 4 kg idea)

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Absolutely.

BEB

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Wouldn't it be better for the committee to point out the procedural errors and ask the examiner to familiarise himself with the current regulations? The suggested action equates to a vote of no confidence and it may be no more than a case of failing to keep himself up to date which could be remedied without causing offence.  In fact, if it does, perhaps he isn't a suitable person to take on the role.

If he fails to reach an acceptable standard then simply inform him that he won't be ratified next year. The examiner rating isn't supposed to be a badge of honour - he's appointed to do a specific job and apply even and correct standards without fear or favour. Allowing him to continue unchecked devalues the scheme.

Edited By Martin Harris on 16/06/2012 19:36:41

[gary132]

Well it looks like the committee are afraid to rock the boat.

they didn't take me up on having a committee meeting to voice my concerns even though i asked them.

they seem to want to deal with it by having a word in his ear.

so he probably is going to get told to watch himself.

and i think i should wind my neck in or i may end up on the wrong end of the situation i feel.

why is it when you complain about someones behaviour to a committee they seem unintserested and you feel you should not have said anything.

i feel if i keep moaning to the committee i will get them annoyed at me.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Not knowing any of the individuals involved, I can't say whether this approach is likely to work - but it might be appropriate. Only you can judge the situation but there are various scenarios that come to mind...

See if this worked. If so that's great and the best solution in many ways.

Wait until next year's renewals and campaign within the committee for his rating not to be ratified.

Call an EGM if there's widespread concern.

Report your concerns to the area chief examiner or to the BMFA - the committee might take an enquiry from them more seriously - but I don't know if they would involve themselves with what is primarily a club internal affair.

Consider whether the membership will respect the committee if they let the situation continue and what long term effect this will have.

Do nothing and accept that the scheme is relatively meaningless within your club.