what cert is needed to fly a turbine solo

[gary132]

Guys i have a situation, we have some new guys joined our club and they fly turbines.

can someone tell me what certificate is required to fly a turbine solo at a local club.

i have tried to research this and all i have found so far is rules on if you were flying a turbine at a show event.

i am left not sure of what is allowed at a local club where there is no public.

can someone please shed some light on this for me.....very very much appreciated. Gary132.

[Biggestgerbil]

Hi Gary

It's all down to the indvidual club, committee and members. I beong to three clubs; two do not allow turbines for various reasons and one has no problem.

As for "A" or "B" etc, most clubs want at least an "A" for safe solo although there is no BMFA requirement to hold any rating. I would imaging, but aren't certain, that most turbine models would be over 7kg anyway. Read your BMFA manual for fine detail.

The LAW says the pilot must be reasonably certain the flight can safely be made, yes the CAA recognise ALL aircraft regardless of size and weight. So your Mpx Fox is subject to much the same rules as a fully loaded Jumbo Jet.

BG

[gary132]

Cheers Gerbil. here is my dilema i am a b cert pilot who can fly anything.

we have a couple of jet guys joining our club and the committee are in a state as to what cert they should have to fly jets solo.

i can fly jets and have done...no probs as i have a B ....

now one pilot is not new to flying but is new to our club and dos not have an A cert and knows he needs to take his test.

the 2nd pilot has an A cert and is a regular jet flyer.

the committee seem to be scared of the turbines and are saying that both pilots need to to hold B certs.

i am looking this up to see what i can find.

the only thing i have come across so far seems to reference that an A cert turbine pilot has to have a B cert pilot with them while they fly there slot.

and can fly solo once holding a B.

But i cannot find this in writing to show the committee....

and it says that a turbine pilot must have a B cert pilot on buddy box as master control until they achieve there A cert which to me sounds safe.

gary.

Obviously these models are following all safety rules with fire exstinguishers fuel shut offs. etc etc.

[Frank Skilbeck]

The legal requirements to fly any model (inc turbines) are summarised here **LINK**, it's only planes over 20kg that require "exemption", between 7kg and 20kg additional restrictions apply but an exemption certificate isn't required. So the level of competence required to fly a turbine model is down to the club.

The BMFA certificates are an acheivement scheme not a "license" but clubs can use tese as a measure of skill.

[gary132]

yes i feel my club are useing the certs as level of skill and not judgeing the pilots on how they actually fly the machines.

a touch of dinasour diplomacy i feel.

also the club examiner told me that because one of the turbine pilots wanting to take his A test would have to have a stricter test because he will be flying a turbine. note the turbine pilot was flying his electric riot up and down the runway inverted and flys a ducted fan jet superb and also flys his heli up and down the runway inverted. this alone shows me the pilots skills....and i have taken the jet pilot up with buddy box and he did a great flight on his turbine followed by 3 more flights where i got a sore thumb holding the trainer swich.

and then told him he could not take his test on a max thrust riot as it was electric and didn't meet the weight limit. which is 1kg ( 2.2lbs )

the examiner 10 minutes after this comment proceeded to take another member up on a slightly smaller electric to which he passed his A test. to say the least i was miffed and felt some biase the jet pilots direction.

Edited By gary132 on 15/06/2012 08:54:45

[stu knowles]

It has already been said in this thread that the decision is one for the Club to make as to what it chooses to allow or disallow. You may not like the answer but there it is and thats how it should be.

I don't under stand the reluctance to take and pass the proficiency test, regardless of whether it is the most suitable test or standard to fly jets or any other model, it non the less suggests a level of competence and willingness to acknowldge the wider issues of model flying.

If I were on the Club Committee and faced with the same situation, I would find the unwillingness of the modellers concerned to take the test would probably strengthen my resolve to make gaining a B certificate a prerequisite to flying jets at the field. I would still insist the the Committee retains the right to retain a watch on ALL club members and restrict any who displayed a less then safe standard of model operation.

If any club member finds that they couldn't live with these minimal conditions to ensure the safety of all and good governance of the Club, is suppose the final suggestion would be to ask them to shut the gate behind them on the way out.

Ehh! it's a cruel world

stu k

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

It sounds like your committee needs a metaphorical kick up the wotsit...

It's your club and as a concerned member, you should ask the committee to address these issues.

I see little wrong in requiring any pilot who wishes to operate a gas turbine to hold a B but it's up to your club to set and maintain any required standards for flying if they want the club to survive and prosper. If they are happy that a pilot is competent they let them fly - whether this takes the form of a demonstration of individual competence or reaching what should be a nationally recognised standard. Their (and by extension, your) choice.

As you say, these pilots appear competent and should have no difficulty passing a test BUT your committee need to address the problem with your examiner - who is appointed by them. The A test should be just that - as stated in the handbook and guides and no more. It should only be taken with a suitable model.

Remember that there are big differences between operating lightweight model and a larger model with a high wing loading and much higher energy and just because a pilot can throw a lightweight model about with gay abandon doesn't neccessarily mean they have the knowledge and understanding to operate a large or high energy model competently.

Edited By Martin Harris on 15/06/2012 09:33:23

[gary132]

stu i don't know if we are reading from the same page.

the turbine pilot wants to take his A test ...he was told he could not because his model did not meet the weight limit 1kg by the examiner.....which it does meet the weight limit max thrust riot.

i was then annoyed because the examiner told the turbine pilot this then proceeded to to test another pilot on a smaller craft to which the other pilot passed..

the examiner said that because the turbine pilot would be flying a turbine his A test would have to be stricter. How i don't know he didn't say.

yet the turbine pilot had already flown and displayed his level of flying skill which is very good indeed. better than some of our pilots who already hold an A.

i felt the examiner was being personal with the would be jet pilot.

this pilot also flys helis and electric models NOT just a turbine.

[gary132]

I feel the committee need enlightening to the turbines and there operation.

which is not an issue as i am a committee member i can convaye this to them.

but what fired this all up is the examiners attitude .

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Find someone else to appoint as an examiner. It's that sort of attitude and application that devalues the test and leads to people criticising the scheme.

[gary132]

Hi Martin we have a 2nd examiner and he will be doing the guys A test.

and i am studying to become an examiner later this year.

so hopefully we can get some consistancy.

[Bob Cotsford]

how come the examiner is suggesting that there should be a different level of test applied for a potential jet-jockey? Surely the whole idea is that the proficiency scheme provides a standard testing level axcross the board. Tailoring the test to suit individuals is making a complete mockery of the scheme.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

I think your committee should write to the examiner asking him to properly familiarise himself with the test standards and if he continues to try to apply his own interpretations then do not re-appoint him next year.

If there's some reason why the committee won't do this (such as him being an autocratic committee member or unwillingness to rock the boat) then perhaps you could bring this up in conversation with your area chief examiner while preparing for your examiner rating?

[gary132]

Bob he is saying that because the jet jockey will be flying a jet after his A test that he wants to do a stricter test . this is for his own gratification in my mind he is not sticking to the BMFA book and making it up to suit himself.

martin.

this i will mention when i take my own test due to the fact i personally think the club will not want to rock his boat.

Hence my asking many questions on here today from more experianced guys like yourselves.

[Biggestgerbil]

I refer to my earlier post, READ THE HANDBOOK!!

Also available on line are the test standards, they are not a Masonic secret and are there for anyone to down-load. There is no mention of a different test for turbine power.

Gary; your examiner sounds like a complete idiot, show him the handbook and ask him where the "A" test differs for turbines. I have seen one ot two guys become national socialists as soon as they pass their examiners test...

BG

Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 15/06/2012 11:01:29

[Quandry]

Sounds a bit like he's jealous, wishes he had a jet, can't get one for one reason or another and so doesn't want anyone else to have fun when he can't.

[gary132]

Thanks Guys you have made my day. and have described him very well indeed .

i shall follow your advise and will be taking my bmfa manual with me to site every time i go now .

as i have this printed off in a folder as i am at present re-learning it all so i can become an examiner.

i feel i now have the relavent info i need guys and would like to thank you all very much and also for giving me a good chuckle at the end of the day with his description. LOL LOL LOL ....

Gary132.

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Seems to me Gary that you actually have two separate issues here; the issue of what appears to be a rogue examiner and the separate issue about what the club's position should be on gas turbine powered models and the requirements on pilots of same.

Regarding the first issue I think it is straight forward. This sort of story worries me. I'm a strong supporter of the Achievement Scheme and as, I think, Martin says, things like this bring the scheme into disrepute. Very bad. Clearly its nonsense saying that one person is going to have a tougher A test than someone else. The test is what it is and should be applied without fear or favour exactly the same to everyone. The 1Kg rule applies to everyone and so does the test standard. I'm sure your Area Examiner would have kittens if he knew what was going on!

The second issue is more complex. It is, as others have said, entirely a matter for your club. Circumstances club to club differ and so the decision is likely to differ. For example my club allows gas turbines, but we fly in what is in effect a public park - albeit a very big one! So the rule in our club is you have to have B cert to fly a gas turbine. Also all gas turbine powered models (as with all models over 7kg) have to notified to the committee via a special on-line form.

Now this may seem a bit strict - but I remind you we fly in a public place and so its not unreasonable that we apply the same rules as would apply if you were flying at a public display. And the bottom line is - our members voted for that and are happy with it.

Its that last bit that is the key element and should apply in your club too. I think what you need is a formal proposal as to how the club are going to deal with those members that want to fly gas turbines. Discuss the issue out in the open. You might decide to go down the sort of route my club has. On the other hand, if you are on private land, with lots of space around you, you might decide on a slightly lower level. What the level is is less important than:

1. Its supported as a policy by the majority of members

2. Its seen to be reasonable

3. It was arrived at as a result of fair and open debate

4. It is applied equally to everyone.

BEB

Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 15/06/2012 11:21:12

[gary132]

Hi biggles i have been speaking to bmfa and you are correct it is two issues.

i have asked the committee for an emergency meeting to sort out my concerns.

i am awaiting there reply.

i am a committee member and want to present my side.

i need to bring them up to spec on turbines and hope they decide they are ok to fly if not it is no loss to me but the club then loses two new pilots.

as regards the rogue examiner i am going to apply to the committee to oversee what needs doing.

many thanks Gary.

[Pete B]

I must say it's very gratifying to see that this subject has been discussed calmly and rationally on this forum, reaching a conclusion and appropriate plan of action, all on the first page..........unlike elsewhere, where the discussion has reached four pages of diverse and loosely-associated comment - so far!.........

Pete

[gary132]

Yes Pete the guys have been fantastic with there help.

it was nice that it went smooth.

and i now know what direction i am heading. .

to be honest pete there is no more to say to this discussion now as i now have the info i asked the guys for so any input here on in would be pretty pointless.

Gary PS: guys thanks a bunch.

[Alan Randall]

The term 'risk assessment' has had a lot of bad press, but I think that, in effect, is what BEB has alluded to. A lot of flying sites have their own particular set of conditions that need to be allowed for. These may include members of the public, animals, highways, light or military aircraft, built up areas, etc. These aspects can affect any aircraft we may like to fly. In our club, we have had to look closely at the operation of FPV aircraft. Due to various factors that affect our flying site, we are unable to accept the FPV Associations recomendations for use of FPV and have aligned ourselves with the BMFA's recomendations. Members have operated turbines for a number of years and accept the clubs rule that a B cert is required for them to do so. This is following a review of the flying site, and the risks imposed by turbine aircraft above and beyond those from normal model aircraft.

[Alan Cantwell]

lets do a pointless post,

i am waiting for the day when i get presented with a candidate who wants to take a B cert with a turbine model, and you know what? i havnt a problem with that at all, but it will be as per book, and very strict, but then again, all my tests are

[stu knowles]

Gary,

Please don't take offence at what I said and I commend you for seeking to be an Examiner yourself, should you be appointed in due course, you will no doubt see some of the pitfalls of the role.

Your Club Examiner was right to decline to take a test with a model under 1kg. it's in the rules and he has no discretion in the matter. I personally wouldn't read too much into the comment that he made without giving him the opportunity to expand on the matter first.

It is essential for the health of the Achievement Scheme that the standards are applied evenly and fairly but in fairness to Examiners everywhere, it is 'challenging' to have to fail people who clearly HAVE the ability to fly the test succesfully, but simply don't because they have not read the test standards properly and don't deliver what it required. If the standards are not displayed the Examiner must fail the candidate. In the case that you describe, I might consider it reasonable to expect an exemplary display of the A test standards from the Candidate but thats as far as is should go.

All that said, passing either A or B only means that the candidate met the standards at the time of the test, it offers no guarantee at all that further flying will maintain the standard... but it's a start.

regards,

Stu k

[Alan Cantwell]

indeed, and there are more than 1 that i would love to rip up their test cert, but then, do we all drive as we did before our driving test? i think not, wouldnt that be horrid!!!!