School project.

[andy watson]

Hi, and thanks in advance for any help.

 I am a teacher in lancashire, and I have managed to secure some funding for a group of students to buy a radio control plane.  I realise that the best advice to get started is to buy a trainer and head off to the local club, but because I am doing this with students I need to approach it slightly differently.

    The first problem I am running into is a choice of plane.  It MUST be a kit, as I want the students to understand how planes work as much as anything.  Also building the plane adds a lot of longevity to the project.  It would probably be about right to think of this as a modelling club whose models fly, rather than the other way round.  The plane must look good when finished, and preferably be as big as possible- size does matter when you are a child! So style is as important as the flying characteristics.

 I have built a Flair Magnetilla a few years ago which I built at home for a similar idea, and that seemed ideal, but I am keen to look at alternatives rather than buy the same again.

My second problem is that when I built a couple of planes before the kit was in the region of £50-100, but from that day on I was never out of the model shop buying "bits"!  For this project I have a fairly healthy budget of £500, but I need to buy everything in one go- anything I forget will end up coming out of my pocket!  Would anyone be kind enough to provide a definitive shopping list- at the moment I don't have a tube of glue to my name (The Magnetilla got destroyed- not by a crash, but a very irate ex-girlfriend).  This list should, where possible, be "future proof"- eg I would rather spend a bit more money on a transmitter that would be able to be reused on more complex models later, as that is easier to explain to my Head than needing a new one.

 Thanks again

Andy

[Tim Mackey]

Hi Andy and welcome aboard

I would say that £500 will get you all you need - my initial thoughts are an electric set-up, and 2.4Ghz radio gear, as the students may as well be involved with the latest type of equipment.  There are many excellent models around these days - however, a true building kit is a bit rarer - you may have to compromise a little here with an ARTF style job, but lets see what we can come up with. Where abouts are you based?

'tis fast approching zzzzzz time for me, but I will post my .02P worth for you tomorrow.

[andy watson]

The school is in Oldham, but I am in Rossendale.

 I really can't compromise on the kit- I would probably change to (non RC) free flight gliders instead.  The students will not get enough flying time to justify spending the money, but modelling time is easier to arrange. 

I prefer, but for no good reason, an IC set up.  This is nothing to do with modelling/flying reasons- simply a petrol engine will have more impact when fired up!  Things like that are important to students!  On a purely personal level given a completely free choice I think I would go for something that resembles a WWI type of plane- partly for the aesthetics, but also because they are easy to understand from a theory of flying point of view.  Everything in this paragraph is 100% negotiable!

[Ernie]

Hi Andy, 

what a great way to get young people interested..I tried a similar project several years ago with a group of air cadets. Met one recently, servicing an RAF fighter, so It wasn't in vain..They were great kids, bags of enthusiasm, but, it was all so fustrating, as their building skills were so unbelievibly poor " ernie, I'm stuck to the twiddly bit" "ernie there's blood all over the radio". Don't even mention health and safety. etc. But, I agree totally about building, they learn so much more.and they do love it. I think 2.4 ghz in a magnetilla is great, If you can stretch to that plus an engine and all the bits. Maybe flair could help out, your budget can't be that far out, as it is a worthwhile project

ernie 

[Ernie]

Hi again Andy,

It's too hot to go out.    In the workshop, I'm dripping sweat on my lovely new paint finish, so, I've had a look on the web

flair magnitilla                            £99.99

irvine 46 two stroke                  £67.50

Futaba 2.4 ghz  full system    £152.99,

There are a few more bits to buy but £50 should cover them.

So you're well within your budget. How's your flying, It's a wee bit more advanced than a trainer.  Or why not go the whole hog and look at a flair hannibal. Just about the same thing but huge.

ernie

[Former Member]

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[andy watson]

Cheers for that Ernie!

 What you have suggested is pretty much what I did before, and I spent most of last night mooching round the net, and I have to be honest and say the Flair kits are still the ones I like best.  I have been surprised not to get a load of people telling me to buy an RTF "proper" trainer, but as you have realised I need a lot more than just the most efficient way to learn to fly.  

 I understand that bigger models are easier to fly than smaller ones, so does that mean the Hannibal would be better to learn on than a Magnitilla or the smaller Attica- the budget can take it (I think!).  Which of the other Flair kits (or similar by other manufacturers) would make a trainer type model?

I think the shopping list will be much longer than you suggest though!  At the moment we have no equipment at all.  By the time we have finished with all those little bits and pieces that you never think about, I doubt there will be much, if any, of the £500 left!

[andy watson]

It may seem an impertinent question, but can you safely fly an r/c model aircraft?

 Ha ha- not impertinent at all!!  And the answer is a resounding NO!!

Of course if I let small things like that stop me then we will never get going, but I do have a plan!  Actually I have 2

Plan 1 is to try find a local club/shop where I might find a willing volunteer to fly the plane for me once in a while.  People do tend to be very forthcoming with help when they learn it's on behalf of the school, and if I could find someone- or a group of someones- to pop up once a month for a couple of hours, then I think that would be fine.  A buddy lead and the kids can see their model flying, and have a go themselves.

Plan 2 is that it will take the students a disproportionately long amount of time to build the plane compared to, for example, myself building it at home.  Although they will be able to build the seperate sections simultaneously they will only have an hour or 2 a week.  If I buy a cheap trainer I can fit the schools radio gear into it and join a local club to learn to fly myself.  I figure I will probably get close to a year before our plane is ready for it's public outing!

 The end result will hopefully be a combination of both 1&2.

 You are correct in the plane being most likely to be flown in the school grounds- the logistics of taking students to a club would probably put an undue strain on the club concerned, and it would be far less safe taking a dozen students into an active club environment than a school with a single plane (and maybe a guest plane).  Although it is well down the line, I would think that the school insurance would cover us- because this is an official school activity.  As opposed to me just grabbing a plane and trying to fly it.  I do think it would be prudent for me to acquire personal insurance as well, but once all the requisite risk assessments and permission forms have been done we should be fine.  I am a science teacher, so I am quite used to having to satisfy over cautious health and safety bods to try make things a bit more interesting.  I do think I am going into this with my eyes open as to most of the big difficulties I am likely to face.  I might not know the answers yet, but I have a reasonable idea of the questions!!

[Tim Mackey]

Hi Andy - sorry for the delay in getting back, I havent just got up honest

The guys above have already made some sensible suggestions. Flair kits have been around almost as long as I have and are generally speaking pretty darn good the final choice as to which one to get is of course yours, but the motto 'bigger is better' applies for trainers. Without knowing the actual flying site you intend to use I cannot say for sure whether an IC model will be suitable - they are inherently noisier smellier and generally more 'offensive' to neighbours and the general public at large. Arguably, they could also inflict more damage in the event of an accident. Assuming you remain adamant on using IC, then the following list should pretty well cover all the bits you will need, I won't include prices as these vary depending on source.

1. Model
2. Glues,  modelling pins,  assorted  tools including scalpel or similar
3. Covering materials and suitable heating iron/paints, fuel proofer and wheels
4. Engine, fuel tank, engine mount, propeller, spinner, fuel tubing  and glow  plugs
5. Flight box ( containing fuel pump, fuel bottle, glow starter, power panel etc )
6. 12 volt Engine starter and suitable 12 volt battery
7. Hardware such as control horns, inkages, pushrods and connectors clevices etc
8. Model restraint system, spare props
9. Full radio gear including batteries and chargers ( 2 x transmitters if wanting buddy lead system )

Bearing in mind your requirements for future proofing then I would just add a note of caution regarding some of the 2.4 ghz radio gear - the budget versions are usually very limited in their provision of control channels, model memories, mixing facilities and so on......

HTH

[andy watson]

That's fantastic.

I now have a reasonably clear idea about what I need to remember to ask for, and a good feeling that the planes I am interested in, whist not the best as trainers are certainly possible.

 I am lucky in that the school has sports facilities that are up with any other school I have ever visited.  The school field is currently 2 football fields and a full size running track in size, but by the time we have built the kit it should have an extra 2 football fields and a cricket pitch!  I can't see the noise would be too much of an issue, especially given the infrequent nature of the flying we will be doing (it will also be only in the late afternoons).

Having said that, I am only saying IC on the basis that noisy and smelly are actually benefits when dealing wth school children!  Do many people mix and match with some electrical and some IC, or does that involve a lot of redundant equipment? 

Finally (that might be a lie), given your comments on the transmitter, is there one you would recommend?  I am estimating I will be in the £150-£200 price range if I go for the Hannibal kit. (That would allow about £200 for an engine and everything else......hmm, looking tight!!).  I remember my last transmitter was either a mode 2; but when I got out to a club to try my plane the club was on mode 1!  For obvious reasons this limitted my access to people prepared to help me fly it; but the general response was- buy a new transmitter- which to be fair wasn't the most helpful thing I had heard .  Is it possible to buy a transmitter that works in either mode, or do I need to just buy one and live with my choice?  If so which is most common?

 Thanks again

Andy

[Tim Mackey]

Check out this thread here.

The Spektrum sets are NOT mode changeable by the user...not sure about the Futaba ones as I am a JR / Spektrum man m'self

[birdy]

Just a thought! Might be worth getting a sim so they can get the basics... FMS is free and you should be able to get a cable to connect the tx to the PC. Also can you drop a few hints about the idea to other teachers... Might get down to kent before I leave school if I'me luck! He he he hee!

[Former Member]

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[andy watson]

Cheers for that Eric.

 That pretty much makes up my mind that I will get one of the Futaba sets, since it gives me the most flexibility.  Will the 6EX model deal with just about anything I am likely to fly for the forseeable future?

The area surrounding the school is pretty open (fields) on 3 sides, and I don't see that we will ever get to the stage of flying anything remotely acrobatic/fast since each year will mean new (and hence unskilled) students coming through to replace those that hopefully will gain some experience over a few years.  I would think that will act as a limiting factor far more than space.  If we are pushing those boundaries then I am probably giving the students unsuitable projects.  To be honest, the students would probably love some of the small "park flyers" but I want these to have an "awe" value even when displayed in the class room, or in a half built state near a strategic window where the other students can look but not touch .

I have just risked £40 on a 2nd hand trainer off ebay with a 3 channel tx.  Hopefully I can start to have a bash at one of the local clubs soon, whilst I set myself up with something more in keeping with what I want to fly!

[Former Member]

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[flytilbroke]

Another option would be to use the Plans Service rather than a kit. A good number of Plans published in RCM&E suggest a "wood kit" option, although that reduces the hands on and learning curve of plans and the practical skills of marking and cutting of wood to the plan dimensions. More than one publishing group have a plans service although this one here does have a good number of plans.

 How about basic Chuck gliders built from Balsa, paid for by pupils, to get thier interest? as part of your course. This is not an expensive suggestion.

Your school fields with the flyover option of adjacent farmland sounds good.

[andy watson]

Can't actually work it out-but the guy selling it is local!!

To be honest it looks pretty uninspiring in the photos, but at worst it will be a tool to help me move onto other things, and I won't be too upset if I dive it into the ground .  I will have a good look at it before I actually hand over the cash.  Of course, once I start it up I might discover I love it. 

 Just out of interest there is the 6EX tx or there is a 7C, which will add a bit of strain to the budget, but is manageable.

In words of about 2 syllables, for someone that hasn't done any flying yet, what extra does the £100 get me for the 7C?  I have read about them both, but some of te comparisons are going above my head at the moment!

[andy watson]

I had a look at the plans idea, but decided that to try power- which the kids will love- might be too steep a learning curve.  I also reckoned that by the time I had bought the plans, balsa+ply wood, assorted struts, wheels etc I wouldn't save a lot of money, if any.

Of course, I might be wrong.  I think I will have a go at building off plan, but I think it will be something at home, rather than with the students.

[David Ashby - Moderator]

The 7c is easier to use Andy. I has a bigger screen with more info, an extra channel of course, a few more higher end features. The 6 should do you just fine though....

[Chris C]

but i made a rc glider at school for a project it was a chris foss primary phase

[birdy]

I'd reckon you'd be fine with the 6ex. I have one and its easy to use as long as you have the manual (which is very good) with you! By the time you need 7 channels and the extra mixes ect. that the 7C has, you'd be getting in the very expensive region, which would probably be very unnessisary as a school. The year group you are proposing this for might also help!

[andy watson]

Thankyou all again,

I will stick with the futaba 6EX as my plan then.  I figured it would be fine.

To answer your earlier question Eric, I collected my £45 ebay purchase today.  It turns out to be an apache 3 plane, and a 4 Hitec 4 laser tx.  All the servos and suchlike are also hitec.  Not sure on the engine- I forgot to ask, and there are no immediately obvious makers marks.  All in all I am pretty happy with it- definately used, but no obvious signs of crash damage.

As is usual there are a couple of issues.

It looks like someone has (for some reason) painted silver at some point, and someone else has taken most of the silver paint off again!!  I will finish the job, as the original colours look fine to me.

There as no charger, which is a bigger immediate problem.  I have found a replacement at Steve Webb models for £11.  I did wonder if it was possible to find a charger that would do futaba as well, but from reading past posts I understand their polarity is opposite, and this can't be done.  I must admit, I am a bit concerned that I am spending £10 on a charger whilst others seem to be spending 10 times that (and more!).

The engine doesn't have a glow plug.  I know they are only a couple of quid, but I was surprised (I probably shouldn't have been) that there are lots of different.  Anyone got the time/inclination to give me a glowplug 101?  I will also need to buy a screw driver thingy to start up the glow plug.  Guess that will set me back about another £20.

So I reckon I will be in the air for about £70, which seems ok to me.

He has also given me a 12V battery, but I'm not exactly sure what that will be needed for!!  I had one last time to run a ripmax control board which had a fuel pump and remote glowplug connectors etc on it.  No doubt I will find out soon enough.  And no doubt it will cost me another £20 for some connector to actually use it!!

[Tim Mackey]

I did mention a 12V battery in your list of wants / needs - electric starter, or power panel supply. Screwdriver for a glow plug? - lost me there Andy.

 Assuming its a 2 stroke engine, then most plugs should be ok - taylor, irvine, etc etc. Some peepds prefer an idle bar version  - webbies will sort you out. Charger - well if all you want is to charge your radio then fine, but what about the glow plug energiser, and the 12 V flightbox battery. Polarity - easy, just snip the wires out of the charger and fit a plug which can be reversed, mark it up accordingly and bingo....use on ant radio. JR is opposite to Futaba...not sure about HiTec.

[Simon Chaddock]

Hi

Just a word of caution - how many of your students will have (or could be expected to acquire) the skills to actually build this plane? Budget for some scrap!

I tried the same sort of thing on a very modest scale with some Scouts. Although keen their craft abilities seemed to range from poor to nil! Only one was any good and once pointed in the right direction finished off his model at home! Simple chuck gliders (and then working out how to make them fly better) might have been a better introduction to model flying.

[andy watson]

The screw driver thingy is apparantly called a glow start!!  Well it looks a bit like a screw driver to me.

Seems there are 2 types, one that runs off the 12V battery, or one that has it's own battery & charger.  So having the 12V battery means I can buy one that doesn't need it's own battery/charger.  Of course, I need a charger for the 12V!! £££££££££

 The question about the glow plugs is about the different temperatures they are rated at.