Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 I think that no one can answer that question at this time David. That level of detail will only really become apparent further down the line as we get firstly draft and then final legislation. But, expressing an opinion, and it is only an opinion, I don't think that issue has ever crossed EASA's mind! What I would expect to happen, and hope will happen, is that when the finishing touches are being added to the UK implementation, via the ANO etc, BMFA will be in discussion with CAA to cover technical points such as this. My guess is that CAA would want to deal with that as a local exemption to altitude limits provided a good safety case can be made as to why an extended altitude range out away from the slope launch point is acceptable. Now this begs a question though. At present my understanding is that, by and large, slopes are not run by clubs or associations. What happens in practice is that individuals just turn up and fly. The new regs will treat them as non-club, lone fliers and their chances of getting any exemptions will be almost zero because they not able to demonstrate that they have a set of operational procedures, based on safe practice, and adopted by all users. Clubs of course can do this and EASA's concessions on many issues are entirely premised on the basis that the model flyers are in clubs, with flying rules or operational procedures that are intrinsically safe, 100% adopted and enforced and "policed". But, even if the new regs did allow it - who exactly would apply for such an exemption? There is no one "responsible" for the flying site in the sense that a club committee is answerable and responsible. This is why I believe soarers need to start getting themselves organised - I highlighted this need in an article in the mag last year. I know the club ethos doesn't sit happily on many soarers - but if it is that or extinction which will you choose? BEB PS Please don't shoot messenger on this! Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 10/02/2018 17:51:26 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Harris - Moderator Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 If it's any guide, (which should still be the case if the spirit of the proposals is followed) outside of controlled airspace, existing rules allow gliders (and other models) above the 7kg limit to fly up to 400 feet above the height of the point of launch - unless an exemption has been granted. There is no limit to the distance other than line of sight, so if there's a 401 feet higher lump of rock in the flying area, you would need to fly around it...or move the launch point there to gain additional altitude! Edited By Martin Harris on 10/02/2018 18:45:45 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Blandford Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 For information, the club field I fly from actually does have a NOTAM that specifies "large model aircraft" are flown from it up to a height of 1900 feet above mean sea level. Our field is between 100 and 110 m (328 to 361 feet) high according to the OS map contours. So currently, we may fly up to around 1500 feet above the field. Personally I have had an electric thermal glider as high as 1200 feet, at which point it was becoming a bit difficult to see (7'4" span). Normally I don't go over about 1000 feet, but that day I hooked a very strong thermal. I needed a prolonged spiral dive to get it down to 800 feet, and when I stopped diving it shot back up and I needed another spiral dive to get it back down again. I seldom find any thermal activity below 400 feet. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Member Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 [This posting has been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisB Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 Rob Buckley has put an interesting and informative post on the LMA forum which may help clarify some concerns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Member Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 [This posting has been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Bran Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 With regard Slopes, there are across the country quite a large number of Soaring Associations, and some are BMFA affiliated. As an example, the Ivinghoe Soaring Association (Ivinghoe Beacon) is affiliated and states it has over 140 members, so its actually bigger than many flat field FW clubs even discounting the non-members that fly there (currently quite legally)! There are MANY soaring group Associations, OTOH examples being Meon Valley Soaring Association, North Downs Soaring Association, Leek and Moorland Soaring Association, etc, etc, etc. There are also Clubs which express an interest in Slopes, while not actually claiming (as they can't) any exclusivity of or control over operation. An example is SRFC and Mill Hill, Shoreham, a Sussex Rural District Council site. It's a far more interlinked network than might be imagined, and IMO its is the responsibility of the BMFA to gather up these possibly disparate groups into a whole under their purview. There are also SO many other fringe operations, for example affiliated INDOOR FLYING clubs that also sometimes operate outdoors as well at their indoor location, for example a Sports Hall on school playing fields or company sports ground. Some of these are BMFA affiliated, too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cymaz Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 Is there a rule of thumb/ back of envelope guesstimate on how you determine 120m/400ft. .? I don’t have any telemetry or the Rx / Tx to ever use one. Strap a ballon ( inflated of course) to length of string? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Member Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 [This posting has been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Bran Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 David Mellor - I operate from a slope site where the height limit rule applied is 50 feet above top of hill. Doesn't matter where you stand on the site as the hill top is not mobile (luckily) and many pilots walk down the slope some way from the near top car park in order to gain more "above their position" height allowance for return security. I do however see your point! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Member Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 [This posting has been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Member Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 [This posting has been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Member Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 [This posting has been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Member Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 [This posting has been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Bran Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 Posted by cymaz on 11/02/2018 09:29:45: Is there a rule of thumb/ back of envelope guesstimate on how you determine 120m/400ft. .? I don’t have any telemetry or the Rx / Tx to ever use one. Strap a ballon ( inflated of course) to length of string? How do you ensure you do not transgress now? There are many ways to easily estimate to reasonable accuracy (say) the height of a tree or structure nearby, then visually step this up. My most used power site has a mature oak that is 85 feet tall at boundary. We round this to 100 to ensure we are inside the law (400ft/120 metres at that site anyway) so the limit is "three more oaks!!" Personally on anything that I do fly above say double tree height I use telemetry and a variometer (FrSky). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Bran Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 Posted by Steve J on 11/02/2018 09:40:58: What have you done about it? Did you comment on the EASA prototype or NPA? Did you respond to the DfT consultation? Have you written to your MP? Steve YES to all. (My MP is ex-RAF and when I first contacted way back now I gained a rapid reply that said quite bluntly that the proposed legislation was unwarranted, poorly devised and impractical to police) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cymaz Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 Posted by Dave Bran on 11/02/2018 09:46:24: Posted by cymaz on 11/02/2018 09:29:45: Is there a rule of thumb/ back of envelope guesstimate on how you determine 120m/400ft. .? I don’t have any telemetry or the Rx / Tx to ever use one. Strap a ballon ( inflated of course) to length of string? How do you ensure you do not transgress now? There are many ways to easily estimate to reasonable accuracy (say) the height of a tree or structure nearby, then visually step this up. My most used power site has a mature oak that is 85 feet tall at boundary. We round this to 100 to ensure we are inside the law (400ft/120 metres at that site anyway) so the limit is "three more oaks!!" Personally on anything that I do fly above say double tree height I use telemetry and a variometer (FrSky). Sheer guess and hope for the best. There are lots trees near by, all mature but no one has measured them. We fly off built up land on the top of an old clay waste pit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Member Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 [This posting has been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Member Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 [This posting has been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Member Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 [This posting has been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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Dave Bran Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 Comparing Shadows Use this method if you only have a tape measure or ruler. ... Measure your height. ... Stand on sunny, flat ground near the tree. ... Measure the length of your shadow. ... Measure the length of the tree's shadow. ... Add 1/2 the tree's width to the length of the tree's shadow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Bran Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 Comparing Trig distance with yourself Find a stick the length of your arm. Hold your arm out straight with the stick pointing straight up (90-degree angle to your outstretched arm). Walk backwards until you see the tip of the stick line up with the top of the tree. Your feet are now at approximately the same distance from the tree as it is high (provided the tree is significantly taller than you are, and the ground is relatively level). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Member Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 [This posting has been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Member Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 [This posting has been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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