Former Member Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 [This posting has been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 Remeber those draft regs are the "full hit" aimed at commercial operators and commercial drone manufacturers - the critical bit for our purposes is GM1 Article 6 on page 7 - which basically says we can get exemption from most of it! I'm now wondering now how this might work - just idle curosity! Is it possible that BMFA might be able to come up with a sort of recommended "off the shelf" package of exemptions we all apply for? Or indeed could they apply for the excemptions centrally on our behalf as affliated clubs - provided of course that each club's operational rules are built to BMFA's prototype - e.g. an implemented version of the handbook. The problem with that though is that some (many?) clubs will have particular local issues that they need excemption for - how would blanket set of exemptions deal with that? I really can't see CAA wanting to see an individual application from every club - they definitely don't want that level of intervention and work! Obviously we'll just have to wait and see,.... BEB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jez Saunders Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 Peter, Steve I have probably been looking at this in a naive way, fear mungering from the press has mainly concentrated on model sized drones available to the public to be flown by anyone, reports of near misses with aircraft etc. does not help. That is also the view point I feel of the general public. From reading the above posts there is of course more too it. As for military use of drones I would have thought there would all ready be rules and protocols in place. After all this to do with national security, world peace and so on. Not saying that they fly them were they want or they are above the law but they can do pretty much what they have to do, fly to were they have to, do reconnaissance, shoot something and come home ! So not sure how they come under any new regs ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Longley Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 Last year one of our members turned up with an electric foamie (not a multi rotor) that he had built himself. He claimed a duration of something like 30 minutes plus an additional payload carrying capacity of nearly half a kilo. There was clearly plenty of space inside the fuselage & he had lots of batteries. It was not that big, He flew it for a few minutes then put it onto some large circles & explained that he had fitted an autopilot ( my description, not his) as his real interest was electronics etc. To prove its effectiveness he left the plane circling a couple of hundred feet up, Laid his transmitter down, walked to the pits, collected a coffee, went back to the transmitter & landed the plane, which was still circling in the same place & at the same height Have only seen him on site once so have no idea what he has been developing since. Neither have I seen any other models like it: but if the authorities preparing the legislation saw that aeroplane in operation the proposed rules might be somewhat more stringent me thinks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Jenkins Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 Posted by Jez Saunders on 16/02/2018 16:50:42: As for military use of drones I would have thought there would all ready be rules and protocols in place. After all this to do with national security, world peace and so on. Not saying that they fly them were they want or they are above the law but they can do pretty much what they have to do, fly to were they have to, do reconnaissance, shoot something and come home ! So not sure how they come under any new regs ? Jez, I'm afraid that the Military cannot do what they like with Drones. All the drone flying that takes place is either in the confines of one of the ranges in the UK or else limited to the theatre of operations unless, the airspace is closed by the civil authorities to allow Military unmanned aircraft to be flown in National Airspace. The Military have a programme that has been running for many years to try and demonstrate that it is feasible to fly an unmanned aircraft (drone) safely alongside manned aircraft - the main issue is to replace the pilot's function of "sense and avoid". As far as I'm aware that capability has yet to be demonstrated in the UK and any where else for that matter. The way the Global Hawk is operated is that it takes off and flies in circles to climb out of the normal civil airspace and there is a NOTAM issued that closes the airspace to all manned (and other unmanned) aircraft while this happens. The Global Hawk operates above 55,000 flt and so can fly where it wants within that Nation's airspace. On recovery, the same procedure applies. The problem with civil operation of drones is that it's only worth doing if you can go from A to B and not A to A especially if B is in another country. That is what EASA is grappling with. The one area that the military does have a dispensation is to be able to fly "not below 250 ft AGL" anywhere in the UK that they are not specifically excluded from overflying. This includes foreign air forces that are operating with the permission of HMG. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Jenkins Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 Posted by Sam Longley on 16/02/2018 17:40:50: Have only seen him on site once so have no idea what he has been developing since. Neither have I seen any other models like it: but if the authorities preparing the legislation saw that aeroplane in operation the proposed rules might be somewhat more stringent me thinks. Sam - you can buy these flight management systems off the shelf these days and the authorities are well aware of them. Currently, it is illegal to use this functionality to fly the aircraft out of the operators line of sight. That's where the wide boys have been pushing it and breaking the law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Member Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 [This posting has been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jez Saunders Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 Peter, you know a lot more than I on this mater, I just don't see these military drones being part of the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Jenkins Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 Jez, the point is that any unmanned vehicle being operated beyond the line of sight of the operator, regardless of whether the operator is military or civilian, will be governed by the rules being proposed. The problem the model aircraft world has is that there are a lot of small drones that are being bought and operated by people who have no idea about the way UK airspace is governed. Unlike common land, there is no such thing as common air. So you don't own the air above your own property - the Government regulates its use. Legislation is not going to stop those who break the law - otherwise we wouldn't have prisons - but a high publicity about the penalties for breaking the law might deter a few from endangering others. At the same time, we all want to see the UK thrive by making use of new technology - driverless cars being another case in point - so it is inevitable that new technological solutions either to address existing problems or to create new opportunities is an unavoidable situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Member Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 [This posting has been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jez Saunders Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 Peter I think we agree on the same thing and I am just coming at it in a more simplistic way. We don't have to worry to much about regulation for high altitude military drones. It's the use of a low altitude small, bye anywhere drone flown by any Tom Dick or Harry with no regard to rules as they are that pose the threat for model aircraft flyers flying within present legal parameters . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erfolg Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 BEB I have just read your comment on the number of respondents to EASA. I could have been a little higher, by one, at least. I could not find the official page to register my concerns, as a individual. I did however Email Easa, quoting the proposal that we have been discussing. In my case I had thought it had just disappeared, by deletion by the organisation. I did quite recently receive a reply that my Email had been received. Which does not mean it was read or anything beyond receipt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Member Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 [This posting has been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattyB Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 Posted by Steve J on 05/03/2018 15:27:04: UTM / U-Space announcement from NATS & Altitude Angel. **LINK** "This partnership lays the foundation for a future whereby access to lower level airspace could increasingly be granted digitally. It links knowledge of an operator’s aircraft, qualifications and mission, pioneering a new form of airspace management suited to the changing use of our skies." This is exactly the issue we and our competent authorities (BMFA, LMA etc) need to be wary of in the long term. Even if the initial EASA regs are workable there is no doubt the authorities are going to seek to make all models digitally conspicuous under the guise of improving safety; really though it will be about making it harder and more expensive for recreational users of low level airspace to do so. I am sure they will let us use an app to notify the location of our flights initially, right up until the first whiff of an incident. That's the point the true agenda will emerge and the future of model flying will become clear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Member Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 [This posting has been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Member Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 [This posting has been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TigerOC Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 NATS have already co-developed 'Drone Assist' smart phone app and requested use there of. It would only require a single member at a club site to the have the app running for NATS to be aware of a location where models are flying and shown on a live map. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Member Posted March 6, 2018 Share Posted March 6, 2018 [This posting has been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Member Posted March 6, 2018 Share Posted March 6, 2018 [This posting has been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich too Posted March 10, 2018 Share Posted March 10, 2018 Posted by Steve J on 06/03/2018 09:00:21: Posted by TigerOC on 05/03/2018 22:28:55: NATS have already co-developed 'Drone Assist' smart phone app and requested use there of. I used Drone Assist last year every time that I went flying. This announcement by NATS and Altitude Angel is further confirmation that they, along with the DfT and CAA, are moving to the next stage and developing an integrated lower airspace control system. Steve I’ve just downloaded Altitude Angel Guardian and it appears to be a very useful app. Edited By Rich too on 10/03/2018 06:43:11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Member Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 [This posting has been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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