Nicad batteries

[Erfolg]

Is there a danger than NiMh will also be banned in time?

It seems a great pity to me, this action. My electric drill/screwdriver uses Nicads, which I think is the same for many other similar devices. Does this mean that i will not be able to get a replacement battery pack?

Why does it seem that these changes are just slipped in, with no apparent discussion or warnings to the general public? 

Erfolg

[Redmorph]

O heck, I have never been keen on the use of NiMh as a RX pack.

 

To many people seem unaware of the limited current drain a NiMh pack can sustain before the terminal voltage will drop below that required for reliable operation, when compared to the humble NiCd battery.

 

I have been witness to models being lost / damaged due to this very reason when “working” the pack hard such as during aero’s.

 

Long live my remaining NiCd’s.

[wlfk]

I'll add a voice of dissent - I'm glad NiCd are being banned. The reason, as I understand it, is that Cadmium is highly toxic. Heavy metals such as lead and Cadmium are being phased out of most consumer goods including rechargeable batteries.

Another example would be lead-free solder which is now used in all but military and some medical applications - as someone who does a lot of electronics I'm delighted to limit my exposure to the stuff. I know a craftsman with lead poisoning from filing lead solder joints, and he's as mad as the proverbial hatter.

So, I don't expect NiMh batteries to be banned, as they don't contain Cadmium. And it's not as if there aren't plenty of alternatives. Many of the newer electronics run happily on 2s Lithium batteries, and these can be downregulated to 5v for those that don't (Futaba) using either diodes or a voltage regulator. There are also plenty of Lithium battery types that don't flameball in a crash (e.g. A123, LiFe) and in the future these will take over the world.

As for consultation - I don't think this comes out of the blue for anyone in the electronics industry which includes people like Futaba, Multiplex etc... There has been a lot of grumbling about lead-free solder, but I think the consensus is that it hasn't been the disaster many people predicted. The world hasn't ended. Aircraft (either real or R/C) aren't raining out of the skies.

[Erfolg]

WLFK

I do not think that the transition to lead free solder has not been without problem. Higher temperatures have typically been required, dry joints, component damage are more common etc.

The symtoms you describe are more common in extreme situations, particular to certain industies, cable manufacture, battery making, hat making. There has been raised lead levels found in children near major roads etc. There is some benefit from controlling the use of certain substances. Yet there is a need to be balanced, and not just take the view if the risk can be eliminated, it must. On that basis the world will cease to operate.

Many of the substances used in modelling pose a health risk, including basa, inhaled dust. the more you look the worst it gets. Metal processing industries, typically discharge substances harmful to health and the argument goes on and on, with almost everything.

From (informed) opinion expressed to me, tthat the dangers from common substances found or added to food pose a greater risk, than some of the issues being persued with missionary zeal by goverment and special interest groups.

We need balance. 

Industry may well have been told, yet the general public have the same right to be fully informed and not by a notice taped to a cabinet in the basement of a long closed government building. 

Erfolg

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[wlfk]

Lead-free solder. From personal experience, it is a pain! You have to replace your iron, or at least the bit, with a new one, because the lead-free will not flow with the leaded. So you get horrible blobby, messy joints. You cannot repair kit that has the old solder - with the new.

I like the new solder - but I didn't find that it worked well until I got a new soldering iron that worked at a higher temperature. The issue is that lead-free solder melts at a higher temperature than leaded solder. Even though you can melt lead-free solder with an old soldering iron, it typically won't flow very well and you don't get good joints. So, get a temperature controlled iron from Maplins for £15, and keep your old soldering iron for the radios (I work on valve equipment, and this is what I've done).

Alternatively, clean the soldering iron tip, add some new solder (whatever type you're about to use) to dissolve away the old solder, then clean the tip again. Repeat x 2-3 and you shouldn't have any trouble.

There was a lot of scaremongering before the introduction of lead-free solder, but as I said before, the sky doesn't seem to have fallen in. In many applications it's actually proven more reliable than the old stuff. And it's probably better for surface-mount technology (less likely to bridge tracks). If you accept that you have to relearn how to solder, and may have to make a modest investment, then the new solder is just as good.

You takes your choices, and lives with the results, or avoid them!!

With balsa dust this is largely true - my choice is to use a dust mask, even though I hate them. The real issue is that a lot of electronics gets recycled in developing countries - so they take our choices and live with them.

So Hurrah for the Cadmium ban!

[Stefan Hafner]

Paul wrote (see)

To many people seem unaware of the limited current drain a NiMh pack can sustain before the terminal voltage will drop below that required for reliable operation, when compared to the humble NiCd battery.

 

I have been witness to models being lost / damaged due to this very reason when “working” the pack hard such as during aero’s.

If people intend to fly aerobatics they should ,make sure that their battery packs are up to the job, and the standard 700mah job, in my opinion, is no where near sufficient for any sort of high demand applications or even modest usage. I've seen models crash for the same reason simply because the pack is too small.

 I fly a 2m aerobat with 7 digital servos on a 3600 mah NiMH battery pack and  have never had a problem, even if i only have 2 or 3 flights before i top it up to prevent any problems.

I suppose what i'm saying is theres nothing wrong with NiMH packs, they just need a bit more care taken in the selection and making sure the pack is "fit for purpose"

[Erfolg]

My principle concern is non modelling, are NiMH suited to power tool use. As far as I am aware non of the power tool companies have used NiMH in the drills,circular saws etc.

One thing that scares me a little, on Monday i was in Screwfix direct, where a semi irrate tradesman was receiving a replacement Lipo pack for a power tool, which cost him £108.

I use Lipos like many modellers, with great sucess. But they do not receive the level of abuse that I and possibly most tradesman subject there batteries to. That is the outside of the pack is frequently hot from the heavy currents drawn and the pack is run to a very low voltage.

What the government has done what it has done, so that is essentially an end to it. My farther died from lung dicease associated with industrial materials, which i would not like anyone to experience, so distressing. Yet some of the potential sources are still permitted, I suspect for reasons of self interest. My own experiences with heavy metal industries (+30 years), is that they are so well controlled and monitored, that the real risks are low to workers and the public.

Often politics are more important than the reality. Power transmission appears to be potentially one of these, where the regulator is very aware of the financial implications of some research, which is then discounted as it is in some way flawed.

Erfolg  

[Tim Mackey]

I think you will find that A123s and similar LiFe technology packs will be the norm soon for power tools.

Most of the exixting Lithium powered ones use Li-Ion rather than polymer anyway.

[Erfolg]

Timbo

Are LiFe any more tolerant than Lipo to large current usage and are they more durable than Lipos.

My NiCad power packs see heavey usage, yet the cost per srew driven/hole drilled or cut made is not a consideration. At the cost of £108 per pack, ther mayneed to be some real consideration.

As far as i can see there is no cost reduction of these new packs, will it happen?

Going back to solder some pipe now!

Erfolg

[wlfk]

Are LiFe any more tolerant than Lipo to large current usage and are they more durable than Lipos.

No, and yes.

The fact is that LiPo batteries will already supply very heavy currents - their power-density is actually much higher than Nickel-Cadmium. Current A123 cells used in models are perhaps a little behind LiPo in terms of power density, at about 2kW/Kg - but this value is actually more to do with the construction of the cells than the chemistry, and I understand that A123 have brought out some new batteries that I haven't played with yet, which have a higher power density again. You can increase the power density (power output divided by weight) of a cell at the expense of its energy density (capacity divided by weight).

Both types of battery will degrade if you push them too far. But durabilitywise - provided you don't abuse them, A123 batteries are excellent. After 1000 cycles, people are talking about their cells retaining 80% of the same capacity they had when they were new. They also retain their charge for much longer than NiCads. They come in aluminium cans and the concerns about flameballs and puffing - which LiPo packs do, simply aren't an issue.

***********

Incidentally, I buy what you're saying about the heavy-metals industries being regulated, but that's only part of the story. Lead-acid batteries in cars haven't been banned, because people recognise that they are valuable and they are almost always recycled. Lead organ pipes haven't been banned because they just sit there for a few centuries before being decomissioned and melted into new organ pipes... But I'd be willing to bet that most NiCad batteries end up in the bin with the potato peelings.

I think it's often hard to know what should or should not be banned. There's a lot of good evidence that lead is harmful. Much less about mobile phones and power transmission. Hormone-like chemicals in plastics... Possibly, but the jury's still out. These are questions that are both important and difficult, and it may be that the answers will change in time. But there is some method in the madness.

I'm sorry to hear about your father.

[Bruce Richards]

Makita and Dewalt both use/used NiMH batteries in their power tools and very good they were too. They are all moving to Lion now.

[Erfolg]

For most tradesman weight per kg is not an issue. It is the life of the power pack, both in hrs between recharge and number of viable cycles. Many will have 2 packs per device, to last the day. As you can imagine, if both packs are empty and there is a few hours of work left in the working day, you get annoyed/saddened and Grrrrrrr.

There is an issue regarding a lot of the conservation issues, they do not seem to deliver the claims. A NT development, intended to showcase the best practice regarding energy conservation has been shown to deliver very disappointing results, using thermal imaging and energy measurements. This was reported in the local papers. Concluding more energy has been used in the additional works than will be saved.  Apparently the message now is wait until the full results are compiled, this was only a draft.

Although far from convinced, regarding Nicads, I am sure they nearly all end up in the tip, as you say. As will the mercury from Low Energy lite bulbs.

I do believe in saving lives and injuries. Once being IOSH, accredited I came to be believe safety is as much about a money making industry, protecting bottoms and above all extra tax revenue for the government of our country. If we really wanted a safer country we would prosecute and jail directors, fine companies on a punative scale, just as our EU neighbours do, when major accidents occur (ie Sandoz). All UK designs and constructions would be approved by Qualified Engineers (Electrical, Mechanical, Chemical, Civil etc) and not relying on bits of paper from shallow knowledge, short term training course, where the government gets licence and vat fees, again as our EU partners require.

A very sceptical

Erfolg

[Slopetrashuk]

Nicads are not illegal. Only making them available for sale. Yey! Free Nicads!

[wlfk]

For most tradesman weight per kg is not an issue.

Weight per Kg is a constant. I'm not being pernickety - I just don't get what you mean here. The two most important aspects for batteries are energy density - how much energy they can store for a given unit of weight and how much power they can give out. Lithium batteries beat NiCad hands down on both counts. Also A123 cells can be fully charged in as few as 5 minutes with a fast charger (not sure whether the tool manufacturers sell them).

Although far from convinced, regarding Nicads, I am sure they nearly all end up in the tip, as you say. As will the mercury from Low Energy lite bulbs.

There is a difference of scale though. An energy saving lightbulb contains about 4 thousandths of a gram of mercury; a battery will contain a few grams of cadmium. So one AA-cell probably equals several lifetime's worth of lightbulbs in terms of heavy-metal release.

I do believe in saving lives and injuries. Once being IOSH, accredited I came to be believe safety is as much about a money making industry, protecting bottoms and above all extra tax revenue for the government of our country. If we really wanted a safer country we would prosecute and jail directors, fine companies on a punative scale, just as our EU neighbours do, when major accidents occur (ie Sandoz). All UK designs and constructions would be approved by Qualified Engineers (Electrical, Mechanical, Chemical, Civil etc) and not relying on bits of paper from shallow knowledge, short term training course, where the government gets licence and vat fees, again as our EU partners require.

As a medical student, if I go to see a patient with MRSA, disease control decrees that I have to put on an apron and gloves and wash my hands twice - it probably costs about £1-2 in time and materials. But if I take blood I have to use the same tourniquet and stethoscope as for all the other patients. I can wash my stethoscope (I'm the only person I know who does this) and use a rubber glove instead of a torniquet, but... my point is that it smacks of a system that has not been thought out properly.

I thought we could prosecute company directors here, though it doesn't always happen.

[Erfolg]

Both my daughter and son-in-law are consulatants. There training was during BSE period and the begining Triple vacine safety concerns.  They were aware that one of there tutors was threatened with retension of post issues, reagrding findings of his research, if published. The authorities do not always want a full discussion. By the way I have no idea regarding the content of the paper, other than concerns were being raised.

You missed out the relevant toxicity, mobility , pathways back into the environment and the food chain to complete the picture of the mercury and cadmium issues. I do not pretend to know the answer and would guess that if a goverment agency has had an accessment undertaken, it will be by an independant orgainisation with SAFE HANDS.

I am making the point again regarding there are a lot of hazards out there, and even our Low Energy lightbulb is not without a risk. I would guess less safe from pollution, health effects from strobing and frequency bands of light emmitted relative to out Tungsten Filament Bulb. Saves energy though, very poor lighting. I would hope that if used in operating thearters, that they achieve the same lumins as what ever is used at present. 

I am using some low energy bulbs at present, very good for building work as they are far more robust than Tungsten. Yet whatever the claims, watt for watt they give less light, which seems perverse to me. Switched on a tungsten buldb after the low energy have been on for some time and found it to be apparently brighter. Which does not seem right. 

It is no good me bleating, NiCads are going to disapear.

Erfolg 

[wlfk]

You missed out the relevant toxicity, mobility , pathways back into the environment and the food chain to complete the picture of the mercury and cadmium issues.

I don't pretend to know the exact answer either, but Cadmium's boiling is low enough that if they were incinerated it would boil. Being quantitative, an AA NiCd cell contains about 2.5g of Cadmium. Toxicity is complicated - some compounds of mercury are hideous; others are relatively innocuous.

[wlfk]

Here's a book about the very problem - pages 219ish onwards.

[Erfolg]

Hi wlfk

The pages of interest do not show up in the book review. The previous pages seem to point to all the batteries being problematic, particularly those containing mercury.

I think you have identified the main driver and that is incineration, as many of the metals can be filtered out from leachates using clay/earth based filters using todays technology. My understanding is that new licenced disposal sites are lined to seperate the waste from the subsoil and have controlled gas and liquid discharge routes.

So, the government is most probably going to try and push incinerators. The mercury in bulbs is almost certainly going to cause a discharge issue. A suspicious person would guess that high maximum limits will be set, backed by extensive documentation and interpretation of World health authority guide lines by the government. As you suggest there was no practical means of allowing any significant NIcads to be incinerated, the Friends of the Earth would have been up in arms (rightly so).

I guess we are going to see a raft of new legislation on waste disposal to permit incineration to be viable. As most truly independant testing has found that the actual levels of dioxins and other compounds to be significantly different (very much higher) to the official figures.  

It will possibly not be long before other batteries containing elements such as zinc that will face legislation as well as polymers. These will need to be out of public circulation, before the incinerators come on stream.

I think I will be joining FE to fight the incinerators, because they were and are a health hazard.

Erfolg

[wlfk]

Something else that often scares me is the thought of separating and composting food waste - something that is happening more and more often. It's one thing to dump lead and cadmium into landfill, but It wouldn't take a lot of either metal to poison a lot of compost. How much do you trust your neighbours?!

[Erfolg]

If the waste goes into land fill, I do not think the control issues are insurmountable. But if composting is the aim, the controls on the materials entering the composter will need to be effective.

There is a large area in the Manchester region that was used for so called Night Soil and household rubbish during the early 20th century. Much of this is now farmland, with no contamination issues that i am aware of. The other extreme is land which was the site of Gas Plants and associated industries, much of this land seems to have heavy concentrations of  most metals in forms which are seen to be a seroius health hazard. The up side is that bacteria can be used for sucessful remediation of many of these sites.

You may have done some work during your medical studies on Stastical Significance. There was a study in the North West on the discharges from a steel works. The owner operator had numerous studies undertaken which proved that there was no link with poor health ( a specific condition)  in the immediate locality. However after closure a significant improvement in this aspect of health took place over a period. I guess if you did not do this one, you will have done somthing similar. What it indicates to me, that numbers can be used very skill fully used or misused. The trouble is that a lot of the work of FE seems to be equally dubious. Who can you trust?

If we continue i think we need to come of this thread.

So back to Nicads.

[wlfk]

The owner operator had numerous studies undertaken which proved that there was no link with poor health ( a specific condition)

Hypothesis-testing doesn't work quite like that. It can only strongly suggest that there is a link - or fail to do so. If you fail to show a link, it doesn't prove that there is no link. Simply that it is too small for you to find with your current methodology. But does that mean it's so small that it's of no practical significance?

What I'm guessing is that before the plant was closed, the experimenters had to compare the health of the people living near the plant to the health of similar populations living elsewhere. Or to try and find a dose-response relationship between the disease and the exposure to waste. Both techniques are inherently extremely messy because you're comparing different people to each other. However hard you try, it will be impossible to find a matching population. For example, say you find a steelworks in Wales and one in Scotland and one near Carlisle, the populations may share many habits (similar wages, social class) but differ in other respects (cigarette and alcohol consumption; genetics). People living close to the plant may have a very different lifestyle from people living 2 streets further away (where there's also coincidentally less smoke from the plant...).

After the plant closed, you can compare the same population to its former self - obviously people age, arrive and move away. But basically there's much less noise in the data, and your ability to detect changes in health will be greatly increased. So it's not really surprising that an effect that seemed invisible before, suddenly became obvious. No need to invoke conspiracy theories - though I'm sure sometimes they're justified.

Even then, the change might have been due to something entirely different. Perhaps a new doctor moved into town, who was either better at treating the disease or perhaps less good at diagnosing it. Perhaps publicity about the disease persuaded people to go for check-ups, and doctors became more aware of it and got better at treating it. And the benefits kicked in just as the plant closed.

Epidemiology is very hard.

[Erfolg]

I am not suggesting how things work or know anything special.

Just recolecting some tutorial issues she mentioned in passing. At the time the methods used were being examined by the group/class to understand how data can be interpreted and if it it might be significant.

I understood the tutor believed he understood, the results. I think they were looking to see what other conclusions could be drawn and how to test them.

Interestingly they both made use of "stastics for dummies" during the post graduation, (further) studies, training and research. Both completed them a few years back now and were glad to do so. So stats were/became very important to them.

Erfolg

[Paul Newell 2]

Banning of NiCads by the EU and other world wide regulation authorities has been on the agenda for a number of years - reason the toxic effect of cadmium.  We simply have now reached the date by which it had to be implemented.  The long term warning by the authorities has been such that high power rated NiMh cells have had time to be developed.  Development of LiPo variants has similarly benefitted from the regulatory pressures.

A similar situation existed with lead free solder.  The withdrawal date was announced long before a replacement had been developed. 

We might not like the way some regulations are introduced but the 'democratic' procedures are in place and rest assured industry does fight its corner.  Just look what was achieved recently to protect the use of 2.4GHz for model control.

[Frank Skilbeck]

Do a search on cadmium poisoning and you'll see several articles come up on workers in battery factories being poisoned.