Roger Jones 3

The worst things for quick deterioration are SLEC control horns. Even my local model shop said so, even though he stocks them. Installed and the plane kept in semi-shade with only the evening sun (so low in the sky thus lots of UV reducing atmosphere to travel through) sometimes shining though the glass in our 'front room' they snap like a rotten stick after no more than a year. And the pumped OS glow engines have a built in failure point - the pump diaphragm. Using a cleaning/preserving oil on such  engines makes it  worse.   Edited By Roger Jones 3 on 31/01/2021 09:10:09

Posted by Bonzo Moon on 30/01/2021 14:57:36: Yes, no doubt true. Every time it dived I tried to fly it back with just a little throttle, and I think I had the orientation OK, but it just did it's own thing! It did appear that the throttle was doing it's own thing too, hence the crazy climbing. Anxiety does come into it too though, and eventually I knew I'd reached a point (and said it) where it was gone! Lessons learned. I was quite pleased with that even model even if it was just a cheap build foamie. I'd put a lot of thought into the build too. Only a couple of days. I guess at least it wasn't something I'd spent weeks building in the traditional way in balsa with lovely covering etc. That would have been really gutting. I've seen videos from a guy on YouTube who builds beautiful jet airliners, and one of his crashed and burned in it's maiden. Model planes can be small and model planes can be large. There is no such things as 'wind' to a plane in the air bur there are gusts. Regardless of the size of the plane a higher wing loading will give you more inertia per unit area and the plane won't be disturbed by gusts so much. It's why some slope soarers (in particular) have bays to put weights in. The airliner. If that was the video I saw fairly recently it was obvious it would happen. Too much time spent building highly detailed airborne 'dolls houses' and not enough air time.

Posted by Peter Jenkins on 31/01/2021 00:32:38: Posted by i12fly on 30/01/2021 13:31:20: On 'intentional loss of control', some years ago I deliberately let a fairly expensive artf crash. I lost orientation in the sun, I could have tried to rescue it as there was just about enough height, but the downward trajectory was away from the pits so I closed the throttle and let it plough in. If I'd tried to recover and got it wrong, 50/50 chance, I shudder at the consequences. All happened in less than a second, it was totalled. Lesson learnt, emotionally it still hurts but no-one else was hurt. Not wishing to jump on you i12fly, but losing orientation in the sun is something that we should all be considering before we get airborne. In SWEETS, the first S is Sun. So, pre-session checks using SWEETS is something I would encourage everyone to take seriously, especially on sites where the sun can get in the way. Luckily, I tend to fly facing north but on summer evenings the sun does come round to make landing from the west interesting. Careful thought on the route to take for landing avoids any last minute "oops, lost it in the sun" situations. Happy flying - eventually! Caused by a lack of situational awareness. In model flying that should become 'automatic' very early on. It's about the model important principle of all in both driving a car and full size flying. Edited By Roger Jones 3 on 31/01/2021 07:03:45

Posted by Geoff S on 29/01/2021 23:27:15: I particularly like the 'Unintentional loss of control'. I've lost control occasionally but never on purpose Geoff I think many forget that the CAA probably regards model aircraft, their 'operators', and the BMFA as 'minor irritants' that they have to be polite to but they wish would go away.

As you say, some of it makes sense. But not much of it. It's marked as applying to a UAS (I had to look up what a 'UAS' is) and was probably just cut and pasted from the full size rules without bothering to check any of it. In practice it won't matter. I am an 'average' sort of flyer, a BMFA member for donkey's years, and like most people obey rules that don't 'impact' me as I neither want to ride a bicycle at night without lights or murder anyone. But if anyone thinks many of us will pay attention to these rules and their 'clarifications' in any manner other than in 'mild curiosity' they are in cloud cuckoo land.

Posted by john stones 1 Moderator on 29/01/2021 19:48:48: Longest funeral I've ever attended, where we having the tea n sandwiches ? If you get tea and sandwiches some policemen will fine you for having a "picnic" so have your 200 quid ready.

The 'common sense' is that no sane operator is go to report it himself and none of his sane fellow flyers will report it for him. "Hello, is that the CAA? I just lost my toy plane" The 'additional' ones? I don't see many people bothering to report ANY of them. Edited By Roger Jones 3 on 29/01/2021 22:01:24

Everything changes, model flying included. Resistance is useless. From a previous post I gather BMFA numbers are slowly declining. In the last few years anyway. Why? It perhaps never represented the majority of flyers, certainly not non-competitive non-rc flyers. I don't recall many SMAE members when I joined the old 'green hut on the Common' Southampton Model Aircraft Club which also flew often at Stoney Cross and Beaulieu., With the advent of multi-rotor 'drones' the number of flyers must surely be increasing as they are very popular. Though many are not interested in joining ANY organisation, some will join one sooner or later, particularly those who have decided to try a 'regular' model plane. The most obvious one being the BMFA. Which will therefore increase the BMFA numbers. Therefore I think the attention given to attracting 'young' people is a red herring. It doesn't matter how old they are unless they are all at the point of dying off. And I haven't so far seen any really old 'drone' flyers. Edited By Roger Jones 3 on 29/01/2021 15:23:17

Posted by Allan Bennett on 29/01/2021 06:28:28: Thanks RJ3. My three Wemotec 69mm units (two in my Learjet plus the one in my unbuilt F16) were all updated a few years ago to 11 blades. The pair in my Learjet use Mega 16EDF motors with no extra heatsinks; the one for my F16 has a HET motor which I read at the time was 'more powerful' than the Mega option, and which came with a clip on heatsink. I'm a bit surprised at your item 6; I thought the idea of a tapered eflux tube was to increase thrust and, possibly, power (maybe only power consumption). Do you taper it in your models, or just leave it parallel at fan diameter? Hi, Efflux area is a trade off. A small exit increases the speed of the exhaust (can make the plane faster) but may reduce the static thrust (longer take off). Also too big intakes cause increased drag and additionally may cause the fan to stall at high speeds due to just too much incoming air for it to cope with. In a plane, unlike on a stationary test rig with no ducting the incoming  air  has nowhere to go except  through the fan,  Interestingly I have read a lot about fan RPM increasing in the air as it 'unloads' the fan. My OS 1100HV ESCs can record the maximum RPM achieved on any given run. I have found that nor even a full throttle near vertical dive makes any significant difference to the RPM so I suggest that the guys who say that have never actually tried it. Though I am not sure why it doesn't speed up. Perhaps because at full speed on a properly set up system in level flight at full throttle the motor has reaches its max RPM per volt (Kv) and so just won't rotate any faster in a dive. PS: Note  that in my point 6  I said my planes are  from kits or plans. I said this on purpose so as not to imply I had some amazing   design  'expertise' that others didn't have.  Edited By Roger Jones 3 on 29/01/2021 07:04:28 Edited By Roger Jones 3 on 29/01/2021 07:10:26

A few tips from doing years of EDFs, not always successfully. My comments are using 90mm multi-blade fans (not the old ones with only 4 or 5 blades). 1) Comparing the thrust of one make of fan unit with another without using a a wattmeter is a total waste of time. 2) At the same watts input the difference between the Schubeler, Wemo and Jetfan is less than 5% (I suspect the higher quality 'Asian' ones. will be much the same, but some of them are rubbish, both in efficiency and physical strength.) 3) The Schubeler HDS  is the lowest load, the Jetfan the most, with the Wemo in between. You can use this to your advantage. On a given number of cells  if the thrust and  wattage using a Schubeler  fan is not what you  hoped  for replace it with a Jetfan.  Alternatively increase the number of cells by one,  4) Using ANY motor, loading it right  up  to its claimed maximum wattage results in wasted power. . It just get hot and you are not trying to make a room heater. 5) From 4 above putting a heat sink on it just 'disguises' the energy you are wasting by overloading the motor by carrying it away.. It's still being generated in the motor coils. The heat sink may stop it burning up but the efficiency loss is still there. 6) Duct losses are very low, even with long ducts,   unless you are doing  something badly  wrong. On my planes, mostly from balsa kits or plans,  the difference in static thrust   from putting the fan unit on a test rig with no extra intake  or efflux ducting  to using it in a plane is negligible - hardly measurable. Even with the outlet only 80% of the fan swept area (area of the overall  fan diameter minus the  area of the hub). 7) If your intakes collapse so that you need to put carbon or whatever rings around them  the intakes are too small and you are wasting power trying  to collapse the ducts. Edited By Roger Jones 3 on 29/01/2021 05:55:22 Edited By Roger Jones 3 on 29/01/2021 06:05:48 Edited By Roger Jones 3 on 29/01/2021 06:09:35 Edited By Roger Jones 3 on 29/01/2021 06:21:14

Posted by Tim Kearsley on 27/01/2021 20:50:15: My sincere apologies chaps! This blasted predictive text is a real pain at times. That said, I am entirely to blame for not reading properly what I've written. My multirotor is strictly mono-colour too!   I think we've got a bit sidetracked by this multirotor stuff. After all the thread is about the CAA renewals  and the only distinction the CAA makes about ALL types of model 'aircraft' over a certain minimum weight is those that carry cameras and those that do not. Edited By Roger Jones 3 on 27/01/2021 21:39:22

Posted by Andrew Calcutt on 27/01/2021 19:20:24: It is as long as the bmfa stops us standing in a field maybe on our own.You can go fishing or for a walk,this could go for months maybe years maybe for ever. I don't think the BMFA stops us flying, it doesn't have the power to do that except at their National site. Our site comes under the 'Forestry Commission' and the public has access but can't fly without a 'permit' of purely nominal cost per year. And unlike the previous lockdowns the Forestry Commission had left open all the 'gated' car parks, including the one we use. Usually we would take that as being ok to fly, which is almost all the time. . But I don't think anyone is flying as it is an 'activity' other than 'exercise'. Fishing is certainly allowed but that's mostly private - fishing right go with land ownership and is often leased to a club..

Posted by leccyflyer on 27/01/2021 17:47:02: Posted by Roger Jones 3 on 27/01/2021 13:49:27: Dream up any reasons you like. It won't change change the numbers. No model flyer I know has purchased ANY kind of 'quad' or similar and apparently don't intend to. Which 'proves' one thing only. Argument from small samples demonstrate nothing. Not from your view or mine. Nor does thinking up reasons on no basis whatsoever. And suggesting they were pushed off by "negative and hysterical" people won't achieve anything either.   Your experience differs from mine - I know several model flyers who have purchased quads or similar - in fact I am one. I have two "quads" one with and one without a camera. The former is a very useful tool, that I have less than a dozen flights on -despite the fact that I've owned it for >3 years. The latter is a toy, which does nothing for me and has more flights, but hasn't been flown in more than a year. However at our club indoor meetings there would typically be half-a dozen folks flying similar things. I believe that Andy, as the representative of BMFA will know many more examples of people who own and operate one or more quads and that by no means necessarily represents a small sample. For the number of claimed units that have been sold a sample size of a few hundred ought to be more than adequate. Immediately below you Andy says "about a dozen" flyers. That's  not "a few hundred".   I'm not going to say how many different flyers I have seen, nor repIy any further as both Andy's number and the number I could produce are meaningless when a million have been sold. What's happened to them is just idle speculation. It doesn't matter anyway. If you or anyone else like them, fly them. Nobody has to 'prove' anything. I've been wary of expensive gadgets ever since I bought an iPad. . Edited By Roger Jones 3 on 27/01/2021 18:24:28

I think it's the best mag there is.

Posted by john stones 1 Moderator on 27/01/2021 16:19:26: I see no one pretending there aren't challenges, I said quite the opposite. You didn't. but some have. And those who said there were problems were accused of being 'negative'. I think the BMFA did well with their 'National' field. But I just posted that others can do it too, which is at least a suggestion. We don't need any buildings, Someone's bound to have an estate car or a Transit we can put a mower in.. The land value will likely go up too, but that's not what we would be doing it for so if it goes down it won't matter. 20 years or so ago I would have put quite a lot if others also came up with substantial amounts too. But not now. At 75 I would not put so much as I probably won't be doing it for much longer. And the pleasure lasts a lot longer than buying a new car that will lose at least 30% of it's value the moment you drive it out of the dealers.

Posted by john stones 1 Moderator on 27/01/2021 15:39:35: Glass half full or half empty ? We are ALL aware of where we are, and of the challenges now and in the future, denial is NOT what some of us suffer from. Question for me is what to do ? Moan and present a pessimistic front, or get stuck in and deal with issues that we can affect and project a positive face. The men and women up and down the Country trying new things, being welcoming, trying anything and everything will mean we survive, change will keep coming, these people will keep going. The day they give up, is the day we are really DOOMED. I fully agree. But pretending there aren't challenges, such as a decline in field availability (two lost in my area in the last three years and another in doubt) is silly. One answer is join together and BUY a suitable field, checking that planning permission will be available first of course. That's what we anglers do with many lakes and lengths of river (fishing rights go with land ownership). It won't go down in value.

Posted by Martin Harris - Moderator on 27/01/2021 14:25:45: My wife was vaccinated on Saturday at a local centre due to being in the vulnerable category. The efficiency and throughput of patients leaves me in little doubt that the programme is very much on track. Roger - I think it would be more appropriate to direct your individual concerns to your health authority or local MP. Edited By Martin Harris - Moderator on 27/01/2021 14:29:15 If I have not heard anything by the end of the first week of February I will go to the surgery and ask. But not yet as I don't want to make a fuss too early. Our MP and his staff only answer paper letters, not emails or phone calls. I replied to your PM giving the full reasons for my concerns.

Posted by Peter Jones 21 on 27/01/2021 14:26:08: Roger I know of folk in the south who are in the 75-80 age range that are getting called up now, just about everyone I know over 80 has been vaccinated, one has even had the second jab, because they were vaccinated very early and went back before the second jab period was shifted from 3 to 12 weeks. Are you sure you have no upset someone down at the surgery !! No. I go there very rarely. Except for a near compulsory (they send you a series of nagging letters if you don't book one) annual check by one of the practice nurses where she also gives you a flu jab,  as I don't want to clutter it up with minor aches and pains. I've only had one 'major' thing (heart surgery 25 years ago) and nothing whatsoever since. And an unchanging regular prescription ever since that op which is renewed by computer straight to the local pharmacy. Also see my remark on the promised website update on the 14th which hasn't happened.   I'm 75 and the heart surgery supposedly makes me 'vulnerable' (though I don't think imine actually does as it's been totally problem free). Edited By Roger Jones 3 on 27/01/2021 14:51:49

*Posting moved from Laser Engines thread*   I'm not sure I believe the UK vaccination numbers. I use a a large 'multi GP' surgery with 'lead' vaccination responsibility for a town of 30,000 people in the fairly 'well off' south of England. The surgery last said their website info on their vaccination programme would be updated on 14th January. It's now the 27th and no update . Also I am in priority no 3 out of 10 and have heard nothing at all. Edited By Martin Harris - Moderator on 27/01/2021 14:23:45

 Posted by Andy Symons - BMFA on 27/01/2021 11:59:56:     Of course they may have bought them before DMARES was a thing, flown and crashed it, or its stuck at the back of a cupboard gathering dust as they were pushed out of it because of negativity and hysteria. Also a million drones sold doesn't mean a million different buyers. I have 2 for example. A friend of mine who makes his living with them has 8 - 10 of them.   Edited By Andy Symons - BMFA on 27/01/2021 12:01:31 Dream up any reasons you like. It won't change change the numbers. No model flyer I know has purchased ANY kind of 'quad' or similar and apparently don't intend to. Which 'proves' one thing only. Argument from small samples demonstrate nothing. Not from your view or mine. Nor does thinking up reasons on no basis whatsoever. And suggesting they were pushed off by "negative and hysterical" people won't achieve anything either. Edited By Roger Jones 3 on 27/01/2021 13:51:15 Edited By Roger Jones 3 on 27/01/2021 13:53:31

Posted by Andy Stephenson on 27/01/2021 11:42:15: Whatever the reason it's just more pointless bureaucracy. Almost 900,000 out of 1,000,000 'drone' buyers have ignored it. And those "900,000" who bought their drones either ignored the regs or were completely unaware because they never engage with current affairs or got them from the Far East with no warnings enclosed. A. I dunno, nor do I care - it's not as if I am responsible for it and nor am I any kind of 'policeman' or intend to be. I'm just reporting the (a couple of months old) CAA estimate of the number of 'license eligible' drones sold versus the number of licenses the CAA have issued, one of which is mine. Unlike, say, car insurance if the other car is being driven near me, I don't care if the next guy along hasn't got one.

Posted by Nigel R on 27/01/2021 10:49:56: Posted by True Build on 27/01/2021 09:17:41: So we have all put serial numbers on our flying machines and pay a tax for the privilege, because a few idiots may have put drones over an airport Edited By True Build on 27/01/2021 09:23:20 Point of note; None of the drone registration stuff has anything to do with people flying over an airport*, it was all being arranged years ago. * the veracity of reports of people flying over an airport turns out to be questionable. Whatever the reason it's just more pointless bureaucracy. Almost 900,000 out of 1,000,000 'drone' buyers have ignored it.

Posted by Andy Stephenson on 27/01/2021 10:08:06: I just had an email from the CAA telling me to renew but I also paid through the BMFA. The Go membership profile screen says it's valid for 6 Months but when I click on details it tells me it's valid until Feb 2022. Who should I believe, what a mess-up. Yeah. The BMFA stuff over-complicates an utterly trivial process. Which is why I did it direct both the first time in November 2019 and the renewal in November 2020 and though a BMFA member didn't use their process at all.

Posted by Doctor Chinnery on 27/01/2021 09:36:37: In days of yore my LiPos used to live in my Office, neatly stacked in plastic boxes. Charging has always taken place outdoors on an old metal trolley - then I had a 3S 2200 self combust whilst charging (No, no idea why, which was particularly worrying.) To make matters worse, SWMBO saw the whole thing - result - all my LiPos were almost immediately cast into outer darkness. Fortuitously there were a couple of strong foam frozen food boxes courtesy of Donald Russell in the Barn waiting to be taken to the tip - brilliant - tough as old boots, snug fitting lids so damp proof. My LiPo boxes now live in a quiet corner outside away from the house - result - Marital Harmony. After the LiPo fire we wondered how our household insurance would have viewed their liability to make good any consequential damage to our property caused by a LiPo stored on the premises ( it goes without saying that if I'd been charging it indoors I reckon I'd be on my own). Probably partial liability if stored in the house? Any ideas Chaps? Edited By Doctor Chinnery on 27/01/2021 09:38:24 Yeah. Sell your house and rent one. Then it won't matter to you if it burns down

Posted by Jon - Laser Engines on 27/01/2021 09:01:25: The EU debate is so polarising its very hard to keep the politics out but i will give it a go. As a man on the 'outside' and 'inside' i can post my experiences so far with facts only, no politics, and just a little conjecture. Bought a guitar from Germany. Would have cost me £345 delivered before we left, has ended up costing me £372 due to UPS charging me for the privilege of letting me pay the VAT i would have paid for free before. Thanks for that. So, the upshot is i will resist buying things from Europe as its just not cost effective to do so. This is bad for me as it limits the range of products i have access to (what i wanted is not available in the UK), bad for the Germans as i wont buy any guitars from them, and does little to help UK shops as i wanted 'that one' and the UK alternatives available didnt do it for me so i was not going to buy one from them anyway. For modellers, If we consider that brands like Hacker, Jeti, Multiplex etc come from over the water we are likely to see price rises on all european brands due to these import charges. With prices already high on some products and margins tight for shops, this too is not good for them. At Laser, our enquiries from Europe have dried up over night. In conversation with other companies in the UK modelling world they have seen a similar drop off in interest from the folks over the channel. Contrary to some of the comments here, this is not good for UK retailers/manufacturers and Laser sales break down into about 40% UK, 35% EU (inc scandinavia) and the rest was everyone else. Loosing such a chunk of the market is really not good. My only 'political' statement would be that the govt needs to do something to prevent the shipping companies charging everyone 20-30 quid just for the admin connected to paying the VAT. It really cannot cost 30 quid to fill in a form and i think the shipping companies are just exploiting the situation to their own advantage. Edited By Jon - Laser Engines on 27/01/2021 09:05:37 Jon, As you imply it's mostly a rip-off by the delivery companies. I do a lot of fly fishing and the best fly fishing rods are made in the USA, But there are few UK distributors so you have to order direct if you want any other than the most common US makes. This has never been a problem or involved extra delivery costs. So it shouldn't be a problem from the EU now. The delivery companies are making it up. The wider problem with model stuff is that the UK model plane hobby customer base is just not large enough to sustain our own industry and may well not be large enough for EU companies and EU-based distribution outfits who supply 'Asian' products to bother with. I mostly fly glow but also build EDF planes using mainly Hacker motors and Wemo, Jetfan, or Schubeler fan units. Delivery was near instant but though I'm not 'price limited' I won't be ripped off so I'm now holding off until things settle down, if ever they do. Ripmax claims to be the overall EU distributor for Futaba. I wonder what will happen to them if this goes on?