Encouraging young people

[Steve Hargreaves - Moderator]

Facinating debate.....my own club welcomes anyone up to a limit of numbers (around 110) but you must have an A to fly unsupervised. Youngsters are very thin on the ground though....I can only think of one or two teenagers & these have Dads who are interested.

I think one of the big issues is transport.....my own club is not exactly remote but without a car you would struggle to get there. Add to this that Mum or Dad would need to stay for the whole session as BEB notes in his earlier post & it is little wonder that few youngsters are involved in the hobby. Sad to say but from what I have seen parents seem to want to "drop their kids off" & enjoy a bit of free child care. Asking them to stay seems to be an anathema to many...

I wonder if the "need" to join a club is the problem? When I learned to fly in the late 70's I was taught by a chap & his mate who used to fly on the local school playing fields behind my house. Try that now & you'd be arrested for trespass...... Model flying is a bit less visible than it used to be...

Personally I think its very sad that youngsters are not more involved.....I started with a control liner aged 11 & this hobby has taught me so much & given me so much enjoyment over the years.

[bouncebounce crunch]

reverse psychology You can't do that son you have no chance.

[Erfolg]

I cannot understand the requirement for an A certificate to join a club. I just makes no sense, long or short term.

I cannot see the logic in requiring long standing members to have to take a A cert either. All clubs I have been members of in the past, have had in place some criteria for determining if a member was considered competent to fly without back up. Surely this option should have been considered.

With respect to the A cert itself, there are a number of tests dependant on model type. Is a separate certificate needed for each type. The issues in flying an electric model are not the same as IC, nor is flying a glider the same as power (gliders have one chance of landing, often flown at distance, the speed range is often large). In short the skill set for each type is different, yet the differences can be and often is, accommodated, with experience.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Application of A cert requirements is a matter for the individual club to decide. We have a policy of requiring a power A for power (logically) holding of which is then seen as demonstrating sufficient awareness to operate EP models - good case for some EP safety questions to be used during the test although not directly related to the i.c. discipline being tested?!

Experience is a fine thing but as you suggested in an earlier post Erfolg, perhaps something that needs re-validating formally on occasion? So the long established flyer shouldn't really find the simple (or should be for any experienced flyer) test too much of an imposition when a club adopts the policy. But I believe the real reason is for the policy to be seen to be fair and not something imposed on newcomers or inexperienced members by a club "mafia". It should be seen as a demonstration of the whole club's commitment to the perceived benefits of the scheme.

Yes, a club is at liberty to apply whatever criteria on competency it sees fit but the vast majority of UK flyers appear to accept that the BMFA A test is a reasonable demonstration of skills and knowledge and appropriate as a level to allow unsupervised flying and to get back on topic, not something that I have ever heard a young pilot object to.

I would add that I totally disagree with any policy requiring an A certificate without offering training and testing.

Edited By Martin Harris on 14/11/2012 13:16:55

[Ian Jones]

Whilst everyone has a right to their views and to express them I think much of this thread highlights one of the biggest problems.

Procrastination = no action

Looking for this or that problem, something to blame - what does that do to encourage anyone, let alone youngsters?

A more positive, "what can we do with what have got to make this work", is more likely to succeed.

Ian

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Posted by Ian Jones on 14/11/2012 13:27:28:

Procrastination = no action

Ian

Probably more accurate to say that it includes no action - it actually equals an enormous number of anagrams amongst which are:

Air contraptions

Raincoat in sport

Satanic rotor pin

- and even contains airport

...but I'm procrastinating!

[Simon Chambers]

Here is an intersting one:

Spy Hawk 2.4GHz FPV - Maplins

I can go down to my local electronics gadget shop, and buy a FPV aircraft - that I'm not even allowed to fly at my local club! I believe the Spy Hawk can't be used with a buddy box, and according to our current club rules (the club commitee hasn't considered the implications of the new BMFA ruling).

So if someone bought one for christmas and happened to come down the club with it for advice, help and possibly becoming a member (unlikely I'm sure) - they won't be allowed to fly it! No doubt turning around and going to their local club.

They wouldn't be allowed to fly it on their own at the club anyway, as we need a A-test to fly solo...!

Even though this applies to my local club, I'm sure this applies to the clubs up and down the country.

Si.

Edited By Simon Chambers on 14/11/2012 14:08:38

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

A good example of how clubs should be prepared to move with the times - we relaxed our existing buddy-boxing rules for genuinely lightweight "toy" style models a couple of years ago and are due to discuss an internal club test based very closely on the A test but suitable for those wishing to exclusively fly models below the existing lower weight limit for the test, at our forthcoming AGM.

Hopefully those bitten by the bug will then see the benefits of larger models and go on to take the proper test and fly "real" models for years to come.

 

Edited By Martin Harris on 14/11/2012 14:37:43

[Ian Jones]

Yes Martin, that will do far more good I'm sure.

[scott finnie]

Martin , i agree entirely on you're view, there are so many very lightweight toyish models out there now and we cant force the certificate A rules onto them since its just not realistic, the toyish aircraft would be lucky if they had the range to perform a simple circuit never mind the rest of the criteria... I believe there should be a designated area of a field (only if space allows) for the use of these aircraft so it doesnt get in the way or harrass regular members with serious aircraft and flight styles, at many fields there already the heli area 25 yards from the aircraft apron and pits, cant we have the same for our ultra lightweight aircraft too?

Scott

[scott finnie]

Posted by scott finnie on 14/11/2012 14:53:23:

Martin , i agree entirely on you're view, there are so many very lightweight toyish models out there now and we cant force the certificate A rules onto them since its just not realistic, the toyish aircraft would be lucky if they had the range to perform a simple circuit never mind the rest of the criteria... I believe there should be a designated area of a field (only if space allows) for the use of these aircraft so it doesnt get in the way or harrass regular members with serious aircraft and flight styles, at many fields there already the heli area 25 yards from the aircraft apron and pits, cant we have the same for our ultra lightweight aircraft too?

Scott

Also at somepoint the persons flying these toyish aircraft will become more determined and want more after watching the regular members enjoyment of flying abilitys that they can then gradually ween into the regular club flying, atleast they'd have a rough idea of the controls of an aircraft too, ive had the priviledge of attempting to fly some of these £50 aircraft and god if you could fly it nicely id happily hand over the controls of my 30% pitts haha

[Erfolg]

Quite a few of our recent members, in fact all, I believe, have bought so called toys. Having limited success have come to our club. One I understand was turned away by another local club. On what basis is another matter, possibly a matter of perspective.

All have bought other plastic models, more suited to learning. One youngster being provided with a couple of old models. A second learnt so fast, a number of increasingly fast aerobatic capable aircraft have been bought.

In the end all the toy models were successfully flown. In one case the toy is of such a high standard, it is a treasured model, hardly ever seen.

Our second youngster has not been seen for some time now. I understand that studying for A levels is reason. I know that it does not to be like that, but I am sure we all remember something has to give at that time of life, I suspect that girls will be part of the equation.

Our club does not operate a BMFA system, nor are we overly pushy on training. Certainly no buddy leads. On the other hand, help is always present, and offered. In our way we get across the importance of staying up wind, in all circumstances when learning, that we check the Tx frequency is free, on switching on, checking battery level, that rate switches are set to low, that the model is visually checked on arrival, that some physical checks need to be done, on arming the model, that all surfaces are moving correctly and freely and so on.

I am shocked in this era that anyone or club would do anything that deters membership.

Although our club has +100 members I believe, very rarely do I see above 6 people at the field. There are probably no more than 15 core fliers. An extra few would always be welcome.

The biggest issue we seem to have when training fliers is staying up wind, having a plan of how to deal with an issues. A few years back, we did have one young man who persisted in ignoring guidance, to the point the chairman, had steeled himself to have words. I had a few quite words with him, and he promptly disappeared. From that I thought, must strike of a job in the diplomatic corps. Being serious, those whom I have helped, do seem to get into the swing of modelling. That flying starts well before, committing the model to the air and does not finish until they are disarmed including the Tx.

As for so called toys, I love them. They may be foam, or light ply and film, yet often far better built than some self build models I have seen. That generally fly very well and youngsters love them, Be it a Stryker or Albatross (which I fly, proudly).

[scott finnie]

I must have been missread in the meaning of toys, most if not all my aircraft are of epo origin, its the very cheap 2 channel button control aircraft i was on about with no progressive control surfaces or the rtf aircraft you find at the local maplin that are simply dangerous, i love you're term;; disarmed including the tx haha good to see one club still inviting new members, what club is it may i ask?,

S

[Erfolg]

Hmmm Toys are a matter of opinion.

I certainly lost one toy, for someone who became a member. It was quite large possibly about 1.5m, depending on differential motor run for both altitude control and direction. When first seen, it would not fly, being tail heavy.

It was successfully flown on many occasions. I do remember hammering the message home, you must stay up wind. I had many a great time getting it back, from down wind. I came to like it, a bit of a challenge.

The inevitable finally occurred, handed back a bit down wind. Trying to get it back, ended up higher and further back, then it hooked a thermal and gone for ever.

I walked miles that day. I think my disappointment at the loss of a toy was greater than the owner.

Surprisingly the young man bought a Parkzone Radian and he has not looked back. The same young man is now coveting a Mig 15 DF.

On reflection we do get quite a few youngsters. I guess they do not all stay. Will they come back, as so many of us have?

I personally stand by my view, less obstacles to flying and a light guiding hand is useful with the young.

[Pat (rActive) Harbord]

I've just been talking to my kids (11 and 15) neither of whom are remotely interested in my models or flying, about why its all a turn off. Just to give some context, they both love the outdoors, ride bikes have girl friends etc and are both into sport, playing for local football and tennis clubs. The eldest came to the nats 3-4 years ago but was only mildly interested. His highlight was definitely the Saturday night free flight chaos and carnage.

They both consider model flying and building the most geeky uncool thing in the known universe, I've never pushed but have always had something suitable for learning flight ready just in case, even had the youngest design the covering scheme. I have my own field to play in so instant spur of the moment access isn't a problem. They have never ever asked for a go.

I think flight and flying is a mundane concept to them both, they don't see the challenge so won't commit to learning. And that's the other problem, learning something that is not inspiring to them or aspirational.

just thought, my youngest can do amazing things with my micro infrared helicopter toy. So the skills are there just not the inclination

no solutions there, just observational rambling on my part.

personally, I blame the parents

[graeme jones]

I don't think anyone has mentioned the "six ages of aeromodelling" on this thread -

1. Up to age 12. You have the enthusiasm but very little money and dad hasn't got time to drive you the 20 miles to the local club, so you can't fly.

2. 12 to 20. You've discovered girls and totally forgotten aeromodelling.

3. 20 to 30. You are married with 2.4 children and a mortgage so you can't afford to fly.

4. 30 to 40. You are working harder than ever to put your kids through uni. and you still can't afford to fly

5. 40 to 65. You are now settled in your job and have a bit of spare cash but have 4 grandchildren which take up all your spare time so you still can't fly.

6. 65+. You are retired, have some spare time and cash, but your eyesight is failing so now you can't see the aircraft and you still can't fly!

 

Edited By graeme jones on 14/11/2012 18:48:11

[Andy Symons]

Posted by Martin Harris on 14/11/2012 12:47:56:

Application of A cert requirements is a matter for the individual club to decide. We have a policy of requiring a power A for power (logically) holding of which is then seen as demonstrating sufficient awareness to operate EP models - good case for some EP safety questions to be used during the test although not directly related to the i.c. discipline being tested?!

What I.C. discipline being tested? There isn't an I.C. specific achievement scheme test, the power type in the fixed wing power tests is irrelevent!!

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Absolutely correct of course Andy - I was thinking more along the lines of the silent flight A - or probably more correctly, I wasn't thinking!

Edited By Martin Harris on 14/11/2012 19:35:28

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Andy Gates]

I certainly do not have the answers the to the question being pondered.

I went to Air Cadets (age 14ish) and met a lovely local gentleman who flew with a local group of modellers flying gliders off a flat field with a bungee. My father took me to this site for a couple of weekends and then allowed me to cycle to the field on my own (a ride of 5-6 miles either way through country lanes, 1970's / 80's).

A lot of weekends later, having done lots of bungee running out, fetching and assisting for the men, my father came up to the site again and a discussion was had by the gentleman & my father.The result was if we could come up with a radio system (Futaba Medallion 3) then the flying group would donate a used machine and teach me to fly.

This was the start, and as I grew up I progressed to cycling to the field with the glider strapped to my back in a fishing rod holdal, bungee on the luggage rack and radio round my neck. Cycling changed to motor cycling and the same system used for transport.

Right now I am in the position where my son (aged 12) has now got the abillity to fly his own machine without assistance. Add to this he is also now building his own balsa machine and is designing his own plane.

My summary is that there are now lots more restrictions on what can and can't be done, my son would not be allowed (by us) to cycle on the roads local to us for his own safety, the boys in blue will possibly pull him over for a dangerous load if he did as I did, the group of flyers would not be allowed to have him on the site due to child protection rules.

The great news is that the modelling fraternaty has not lost its generosity, my son has now been the recipient of 2 unwanted models, and for a small donation has got a glow 2 stroke motor and a 4 stroke coming. The enthusiasm shown to my son by the modellers who we fly with is beyond words which has kept his enthusiasm high, and I believe we all look forwards to flying together.

I would love to see more youngsters like my son, learning the skills required to be involved in this superb hobby / sport. I would love to teach more youngsters to fly and would be quite happy to use my machines to do so.

More involvement at school level and with youth groups (scouts & Air cadet type groups) has to be part of the solution, but the kids have to want to do it themselves - maybe that is the biggest hurdle in the world of instant gratification.

[Tom T]

...I wrote it in Microsoft word first so I didn't lose it, sorry for it being so small....

Now I have finished writing my 3000word history essay I will now re-write the response I wrote the other day sorry if it’s a little slap dash, I've been typing for hours!>>

 

Starting all the way back with Ian I agree with what CS says, it is a difficult question to answer. In a way yes it does, in a sense no. Most of it is very informative but a lot is also very daunting… money issues, targeting an older audience etc. We need this thread to turn a little 'promotive'... (Don’t think that’s a word hmmm aha.... needs to be more of an advert aha). There are probably young ‘none’ signed in guests viewing so I think we need to push some promotion through. I am finding it very interesting anyway, so please all carry on!!>>

At the moment I get the sense that everyone is in favour of not bothering with the younger generation and targeting the 20 year olds and above, which I guess is a sensible idea but wasn't really the reason I wrote the article. A concern that I have is that if we only target the 20 year olds they would only be in the hobby for a few years before they are off studying, working or starting a family. This leads me on to wondering, how many youngsters were there when you were a teenager… How many left the hobby when they were 20…. How many returned, Maybe 50%? Now… think how many youngsters there are about today in the hobby….. Divide that by 2. To me that works out to being about the population of your local model clubs summer event. Not enough to carry on the BMFA nationals and the likes. It is a huge worry to me! It would be such a shame to see the hobby fade or turn into the ‘oh do you remember’ hobby like so many other hobbies. I want to be able to take my children flying and my grandchildren flying. It’s such an educational hobby that will just be wasted.>>

To be continued..........

Edited By Tom T on 14/11/2012 22:24:18

Edited By Tom T on 14/11/2012 22:26:21

[Tom T]

 

Part 2:

 

Education…… I can’t begin to believe how often I have learnt something in school and thought; oh I’ve learnt that in modelling. In Maths the other day I was learning about Exponential, there’s my class mates sitting there with their eyes crossed and me sitting there writing away with the picture of my transmitter screen in my head……. I got an A in my engineering GCSE paper and I still claim my success (or luck) on modelling. If only we could gather a few willing members together to visit a few schools or school fetes. That would be more than enough to carry the hobby on.>>

Here… Here, I propose an idea! >>

Firstly select one day of the year and have a few club members bring down their trainers and buddy leads. Then a couple of the club members (club members from all across the UK) visit their local schools and local show events. When you are there, market the club event like mad! Get them to come along, have a whale of a time and you never know you may get a few of them signing on the dotted line. Obviously you would need it to be better organised than my little plan but you get the idea…. Is it just me being desperate aha? That is just a suggestion… I know that our club visited a local event a few years back and I am not too sure what the success rate of that was but I am sure they got a few members from it. I am sure there are other ways as well.>>

Moving on…..>>

I saw something that a few of you have put about the club being used as a babysitting facility. This sort of upset me slightly (no, not literally… just made me think aha) Neither of my parents model fly and in fact have no interest in it what so ever, so it makes it very difficult for me to get one of them to stay the day. I also have 2 other brothers who also have commitments so my parents are running here there and everywhere. So I have no choice but to be ‘left’ at the model field. I do not mind it as it gives me a sense of freedom although I am not too sure on the club members’ opinions. My parents certainly do not use the model field as a babysitting facility and they wouldn’t dream of it even though it seems that way sometimes. I think I am old enough and certainly ugly enough to look after myself if anything were to go wrong, even though the club members do a fantastic job of keeping one eye on me, I am very grateful to be a part of the club that accept the situation that I am in. If I wasn’t allowed to be there without my parents then I think I wouldn’t get any more than a day a year down at the field. My parents have had a word with the members previously so they are fully aware what goes on, don’t worry, they don’t drop and run aha, one of my parents are usually always there for set-up, first flight etc.>>

Sorry if that seemed a little ranty again. Anyway, I am still reading through… slowly… the posts, so no doubt there will be a few more posts coming from me very soon.>>

Tom

....I wrote it in microsoft word first so I didn't lose it, sorry for it being soo small....

Edited By Tom T on 14/11/2012 22:25:53

[Tom T]

2. 12 to 20. You've discovered girls and totally forgotten aeromodelling.

 

Sorry but for me thats wrong, I find time for Girls education, air cadets, fishing... (when the brother insists) full size flying, orienteering.. the list is endless... obviously Girls, aeromodelling, air cadets .... and ohh education are my top 4

I would take the girls up the field but I don't think they would appreciate it aha

Edited By Tom T on 14/11/2012 22:32:41

[WolstonFlyer]

I am in the 30-40 bracket and and after various hobbies (including very fast motorbikes and restoring an old VW beetle) I got involved in model flying last year and I am completely hooked for life!

I am doing my bit by getting my two older children interested in flying. My boy is 9 and is much better at micro helicopters than I am and is also very handy on Phoenix with fixed wing, he was flying the V-22 Osprey the other day doing very clean touch and go landings.

My daughter is younger and likes to stand and watch at the moment but I also think she wants to have a go on a buddy box. I am hoping to get my A test this next year and then I can get them both flying.

 

Edited By WolstonFlyer on 14/11/2012 22:40:51

[Concorde Speedbird]

Once again I agree with Tom, so I won't write another essay.

Interesting the 12-20- You've discovered girls and totally forgotten aeromodelling.

For me- like Tom- that is not true. In fact it is almost opposite for me, I don't really care about girls at the moment- just a distraction(!). I sail, general research on full size aviation, aeromodelling is my main activity and school of course.

CS