WWI bird - a couple of questions

[Major]

Hi all!

I think it would be a tme to finish model started last year - Matts' J1 Phoenix. From few days I search for any information, I got few photos, but nothing more.

 

I intend to cover it with dope and tissue, plane will be electric powered. I wish to do some more than its designer and here is what I want to ask...

 

* How to make scale hinges like these?

I think of using mylar hinges here, and the rest visible on the photo would be fake hinge made from 0.4mm ply or even heavy weight tissue cut to shape. What do You think?

*Stiching. How is it done here?

To me it looks like fabric was stiched to the airframe and then covered with extra stripe of material?? Am I right?

What about stiching on the tail surfaces? Is there any? And same thing on the fuselage...

 

 

* Are there rivets on the fabric??

 

* What is this linkage for?

 

I think it would be all at the moment. Now I need to do some shopping and in few days should start my "fun scale project".

 

Cheers

Tom

Edited By Major on 09/03/2013 18:31:49

[Bob Cotsford]

A couple of generalisations - fabric covering will be stitched to the ribs and then covered with a strip of fabric doped on top to protect the stitches. Wings, tail and rudder. I believe most will also have a fabric strip reinforcement around the surface perimeter ie leading edge, tips and trailing edge.

There won't be rivets but there may well be eyelets for the lacing on inspection panels and the fuselage seams, and extra fabric layers around cable exits and the like.

You would really benefit from a trip to Old Warden or Hendon where you will be able to get a good look at fabric covered aircraft of the period.

As for the control - is it the 'down' elevator cable?

Edited By Bob Cotsford on 10/03/2013 10:26:41

[Major]

Hi Bob

Sorry for getting back so late, I'm having problems with my PC. Thanks a lot for your input. This did clarify few things for sure. It will take some time before I will start the build, so I hope to find out more info about this particular aircraft.

I have no idea what the linkage might be... Couldn't find anything, my books give very modest info.

As to the trip to the museum - this year I am going to visit some airshows and aviation-related places, I think this will give me a lot better feeling of aircrft seen in flesh.

If anybody else has some info or answers to my questions - please shar them with me. Last few days I searched a lot web pages, but except few photos, not very detailed ones, nothing...

Cheers

Tom

[Bob Cotsford]

In the first photo that cable appears to go back up into the fuselage, and in the second the lower elevator control cable emerges from the rear fuselage below the tailplane leading edge, so I'd say it's definitely the cable connection from the lower elevator horns to the bottom of the control column. For your hinges, ply set into the aileron l/e would do to represent them, or make them functional using fibreglass sheet.

I think a search through one of Danny Fenton's threads should reveal some photos of how the stitching is represented as IIRC the Hurricane had fabric covered controls.

[Simon Chaddock]

Can't be sure but those 'rivets' are likely bolt heads under the fabric. It was common to make a fuselage joint with a cover plate each side bolted through each wooden component. In many cases the joining plate also acted as 'strong point' and included a bracket to fix rigging or a strut to.

[andy watson]

re. stitching what you describe sounds pretty much spot on.

The "normal" technique for modelling this would be to use strips of solartex as rib tapes (Mick Reeves sells pinked ones, but most people seem to recommend tearing them to be more scale). Then use PVA glue or similar to draw lines across it to represent the stitches. This then gets painted with the tape.

There are plenty of examples around in the various build blogs.

[Major]

Thanks a lot gents. Some very useful info here.

Bob
I would like to make scale functional hinges, but now it all looks quite difficult to me. Of course I will try when wing will be built. I got time for experiments, so maybe something will come up.
As to the controls - I must buy some stuff and think about it.
But looking at my
"skills" I'm not sure that I could make it...

Simon
Thanks. So I wasn't that far wrong from what You say. In this case it will be easy to model, also it is very good to know what are these mysterious bits.

Andy
I considered mask for stitching from the tissue,but this could be much more proalematic than use of solartex - shrinking material would be the best. But will solartex stick to doped tissue? I never tried this before. Or ?s there any other covering similar to tex, but lighter?

Cheers
Tom

[andy watson]

Hi Tom,

I either didn't read or forgot the bit where you said you were covering in tissue! I would replace the 'tex I suggested with a strip of tissue.

[Major]

Hi Andy

Well, that's what I aim for. I think that even doped and painted tissue will be much lighter than Solartex. Also I couldn't apply 'tex to be drum tight for some unapparent reason. But if I could find covering that might simulate fabric, but is much lighter than 'tex - I would use it.

[Ernie]

Hi Major, I use Diacov quite a bit. It's a tex, a bit lighter than Solartex, but is only available in a natural colour. I think that Blackburn Models stock it.

ernie

[Major]

Hi Ernie.

 

Thanks a lot for info. Will check it now.

 

Cheers

Tom

 

Edit:

Googled it just now, but with no results. Also couldn't see it on Blackburn Models website. Will look for it more, if I can't find it, I will think about tissue, Litespan or in the "worst" case - Solartex.

Edited By Major on 12/03/2013 11:21:38

[andy watson]

What scale are we talking about here? I would imagine tissue wuld simulate fabric very nicely at smaller scales- especially if the doping/painting is done with a light touch.

On a similar idea- why not glass cloth it (with very light cloth), but then don't do what you would normally do and leave the weave unfilled.

[Major]

Model has wingspan of 98cm as far as I remember. As to the finish - it will not be the museum example, but I want to improve some skills and include quite a few details.

For doping and painting I will most probably use airbrush.

Glass cloth would be nice idea as well, thanks for pointing that out. Will have a read about this.

Tom

[Hugh Coleman]

German and Ottoman Empire aircraft "generally" had a zigzag stitching on the pain plane ribs.

This was done to a fabric re-enforcing tape that was run along the rib under the linen covering and then covered with a rib tape.

Be careful with the tail surfaces on these types. Generally (again), these had steel framed tail surfaces. Sometimes these were stitched but usually not.

The Fokker D-VII for instance and Albatros variants mostly did NOT have rib stitching on the tail surfaces...

Cheers,

Hugh

[Major]

Hugh

Thanks for heads up. Will pay attention to that.

I stil lok for publications and pictures of this aircraft. I wanted to order **LINK**, but unfortunately there is nothing about D.III

Regards

Tom

[David Davis]

According to my copy of "World Aircraft Origins- World War 1," the Phoenix DIII differed from the DII only in that it had ailerons on both the upper and lower wings which was unusual for an aircraft of the Central Powers.

If that is the case, Datafile 31 may be helpful as it covers the two earlier marques.

[Major]

Dave

There was some more things that differ. Four ailerons, wing tips and flattened (or lowered, whichever is correct in English) front part of fuselage (due to armament). D.III had also flat wings, with no dihedral. D.I and D.II had it, and were too stable in comparision to opponents.

However, You are right. There was no really big diference, from data I currently have I slowly work out all details that I need (but of course publication about D.III would great...). Now I am intrested in the tail (stiching and construction on a model) and size of service plates.

Cheers

Tom