Competition Flying

[Peter Jenkins]

Having read the very interesting thread on classic aerobat photos and come across some harsh words on today's F3A scene I was going to put my viewpoint but as was rightly said, it needs a new thread.

I decided I wanted to enter competition aerobatics and after trying for 10 years to get my B finally achieved it when I retired! My first taste of competition was at the Seb Art Cup competition held alongside the first European Cup F3A competition. The rules were that you could only enter if you'd never flown in a competition before. So, I took my Wot4 along and was faced by mostly Seb Art Angel 50s or Winds S 50s. There were 10 competitors and I made 7th place with my Wotty. Yes it was a bit nerve wracking but also great fun and I learned a lot. I also saw for the first time proper F3A machines being flown by the best UK and European pilots - what a revelation. I want some of that I thought.

Well, the GBR/CAA has been extremely helpful to me. There is no sign of elitism and you couldn't meet a more helpful or likeable group. So, I would be really interested in knowing what has triggered all the negative views that have been expressed.

Cost of entry to fly in Clubman is - take your current aerobatic plane along and compete. Yes, there are not many in each of the lower classes but that's a direct result of folk thinking they need to be super pilots to fly in a comp. You become a much better pilot by flying in competition and you certainly reduce your crash rate which saves a good deal of money during the year!

I have run 2 New Pilot Open Days under the GBR/CAA banner and got financial help from my local Area Committee. Experienced GBR/CAA pilots come along to mentor the newbies. The 20 pilots who entered these found them to be a great learning experience and at least half of the last NPOD would have entered the next Competition - sadly that had to be cancelled. The point about trying to get more pilots involved is that we can then have more local competitions and thus build up the number of competitors who will then swell the ranks at the Nats and perhaps we will need more than 1 flight line.

I appreciate that the allure of some of the classic aerobatic designs is that they are cheaper than having to shell out for today's ARTF F3A composite planes but this is not always the case. I should say that I have a Gangster 75 in build and a Taurus kit waiting for my recently acquired Veco 45 both of which I intend to bring to a UKCAA event in 2014. However, in the class in which I'm currently flying, Masters (one down from FAI P), the winner was flying an Angel 50. Bears out Terry's point that the most important factor is the pilot. You could probably get a new Angel 50 up and running for around £300 if you make maximum use of some of the new Turnigy motors and ESCs. Furthermore, Extreme Flight entered the market with a cheap 2 m F3A machine, the Vanquish, which I bought and got airborne with all new stuff for £1,250. Yes, that's expensive but probably equates to the loss of 4 decent sport aerobatic models in the year - something that is quite common in today's climate.

So, it is sad that people express views based on what they think about other parts of the sport without finding out what it's actually like today. Other countries have thriving F3A scenes but for some reason we seem to have shrunk. I know this is something that the GBR/CAA is actively discussing with a view to improving the situation but the best way to improve it is for people to come along and have a go at flying in today's F3A competitions without first going out and spending a load of dosh. A well trimmed reasonably aerobatic airframe (Acrowot for example) could be a jolly good performer in Clubman but you do need to practice!

OK - stand back for the incoming.

Peter

[Adam Lomax]

I agree Peter, the GBR/CAA couldn't be more helpful in the F3A/F3P scene, every member is more than happy to help you out when you're stuck and give you feedback.

As for the cost I competed all the way up to FAI using a Black Horse Models Super Air and a Zen 120. Both of these models could compete against any two meter £3000 model... as long as the pilot pays attention and has set the plane up correctly!

[Bob Cotsford]

A quick answer is that I think the classic scene folk are just doing it for a bit of fun, and as per Steve's reply the GBRCAA boys seems to take things a bit more seriously, but mostly I think it's down to perception. The top level is what gets most of the publicity with multi-thousand pound setups which is then seen as a requirement.

I'd quite fancy going to one of the intro days with one of my olde-worlde jobs if there was one at a convenient time and place for me, and if I didn't need a 'B'. Otherwise I'll stick with the odd fly-in and amusing myself trying to improve my flying at the club field.

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

I have just deleted a post off this thread - can I remind anyone who maybe thinking of posting anything similar:

1. This forum is open to all model flyers and all are welcome here. We are not the slightest bit interested in any petty politics that might be going on elsewhere. So don't bring it here.

2. Only moderators will decide if posts are inappropriate - and we only rule them so if they break the Code of Conduct.

So, please, no further posts declaring anyone as being unwelcome on here or you will find yourself unwelcome to the point of exclusion!

BEB

[Max50]

Maybe at club level , people should be more active and encouraging at getting flyers through their 'B' test and then you may get more trying GBRCAA competitions. - More 'B' pilots; then a bigger pool of people out there to try competition flying.

At our club people just want to fly and are happy with their sports and scale models; having passed their 'A'. They did try a 'B' test training day but not many turned up, so they haven't tried again. So less 'B' pilots; less possible GBRCAA competition flyers out there.

Maybe with the active UKCAA scene it may encourage more into the GBRCAA competition flying.

[minty morton]

I went along to GBRCAA NPOD (new pilots open day) a few years ago and found everyone there very helpful and friendly.

My mentor for the day was Bob Wasson who I had not met before but got on very well with and learned a great deal from.

I have fond memories of Bob and the day and would encourage anyone to go along and learn from them.

["L"Plate]

In answer to Bob, I would think that a classic aerobat would do very well at "Clubman" the manouvers are well within their scope and it would probably perform better than some sports models. For the NPODs you don.t need a "B".

Yes you are probably right GBRCAA may be more serious at the top end (because they are trying to get to international standards) and GBCAA more fun loving because it is a domestic comp. I think both will be fun to fly and both will inprove your flying, it will be an individual choice what comp's you fly. For me I want to do both, as Classic will be more about fun with home build history and F3a more about giving my flying a direction that requires practice and inprovment. (I know I will not be another CPLR, I am too old and don't have the time to practice for hours each day).

I think F3a, F3p and Classic all have roots in aerobatics and that there will be pilots that enjoy playing in more than one and this should be embraced, as it will help improve flying at club level with different ideas coming from different areas.

Edited By Algy Yates on 10/11/2013 09:51:37

[Bob Cotsford]

In answer to BEB, I do think Steve had a point in that a thread related to current day aerobatics doesn't really fit in the UKCAA classics area, perhaps Steve could have been a bit more diplomatic in the way he put it and left out references to GBRCAA responses.

I seem to remember Steve's post as saying that the thread CONTENT wasnot appropriate in our little corner, maybe it was me who misread it?

or...

[Bob Cotsford]

Thanks for clarifying the requirements for newbie days Peter.

Mods, now it's been certified PC maybe this whole thread needs moving to somewhere more appropriate, maybe a general interest area?

[Steve Dunning]

I'm sorry for the way in which I put the aforementioned thread. Peter and I have been in private discussion and have come out (for my part anyway) with an amicable outcome with both respecting the others views.

On a lighter note, a visit from Graham and Martin Fox yesterday afternoon highlighted what we are all about. Building techniques, looking at old plans and talking about what was on the building board for next year. A great afternoon, with both sides sharing plans and info with the other.

Happy building this winter, and in line with the title, ready for a bit of fun competition next year.

Steve

[Bearair]

As far as I am aware there is no competition flying in UKCAA is there?

Since the title of the thread is competition flying I would like to point out that the RC power classes in this country has diminished in all classes not just aerobatics. Pylon racing is almost non existence compared to the seventies although Club 2000 still has thirty odd followers. Even scale has no where near as many competitors. I feel there are a lot of factors at work here.

The removal of the 10cc 11lb rule.

Noise restrictions

The BMFA achievement scheme

Show flying

Fly ins

Over zealous club restrictions

Lack of Publicity for our top pilots.

The sidelining of competitions at the nationals

Ostracising of competitive flying by some club committees and general attitude of sport flyers towards excellence.

I realise there are some pretty controversial statements above but be lets be honest your average club flyer has no interest in competitive flying, which is fine, that's what most people want from the hobby I have no problem with that. I was lucky enough to begin my flying with a club with a great competitive ethos but as i have moved around the country i have discovered that is far from the norm.

Roger

 

Edited By Bearair on 10/11/2013 11:23:29

[Steve Dunning]

Note Roger that I did say 'fun'. The fly-in's that we have had so far have got the group started. Low key comps, for those that want it, can be available alongside the existing format.

[Bearair]

Sorry Steve I was writing while you posted I was trying to point out that it seemed strange to have a discussion about competitive flying in the UKCAA part of the forum, an association that it not primarily about competition.

Roger

[Martyn K]

There is no reason why the UKCAA shouldn't encourage members to take part in competition. It's probably the best way of improving an individuals flying but more importantly, it should always be seen as a low pressure fun event where participants are encouraged to take part, will receive the benefit of feedback from other members and go home feeling that they have had a great day out - no matter how well they have/haven't performed. Steve published two proposed schedules earlier in the year, if you think these are too easy or hard, then please let us know. We are very receptive to ideas.

Classic Aerobatic competitions will never replace GBRCAA events nor compete with their status, however we are hoping to attract builders and flyers who don't want to demonstrate that they are world leading pilots.

What is clear though is that all 3 major disciplines of UK aeromodelling (FF, CL and RC) seem to be having a resurgence in classic type events - where people are remembering the fun that they used to have when they were part of the full design/build and compete process and it was affordable. I hope that the UKCAA will be part of that resurgence in classic aeromodelling and that interest and the fortunes of the group will grow in due course.

But please - don't feel that competition is what it is all about, it's only a small part of whet the group can offer to members, the competition is just one of the ends of the process and we will cater for the builders, the buyers, the fun flyers and the competitors equally. Just remember we are here to enjoy ourselves - it's only a hobby.

Martyn

["L"Plate]

I think the two schedules are just fine set at just the right point for the club pilot wanting to set themselves a bit of a challenge without the added work of a turnround schedule. The UKCAA is to me about bringing the past to life but I would be nice to have a bit of light harted competion but with such a wide range of airframes it has to be light harted.

That said a lot of the airframes especially the later ones would be ideal to have a go at the GBRCAA lower class schedules.

I think that resurgence in classic in the three disciplines is due to those who probably have been out of aeromodeling for some time (possibly due to family) returning to the hobby and wanting to link to the their past building days or younger pilots just wanting to see what the older models were like, either way I think it is good for the hobby and may help get model building back into main stream a bit more.

[Terence Moore]

Back in the 1970's and 80's I used to look forward to the magazine content that was on offer then........................mainly of the build it and fly it articles, that coupled with the then current club encouragment to fly, practice and learn in parallel with building seemed to produce a positive response,and a more willingness to enter copetitions, if only at club level.

Now, however, most of the current magazine reviews are of ready built "toys". Are we missing the link here somehow????

Yes there is room for all in our hobby, but so few newcomers turn up at our club with a model they have built themselves, and if not properly looked after leave the hobby after a few experiences of failure.

I seem to be rambling on a bit, but the essence of what I am trying to say is ................................................

[Terence Moore]

Sorry for any typo's, a product of my rambling on. Missed the m out of competitions.

["L"Plate]

Yes Terence, I think you are right that we tend to have model fliers these days not aeromodellers. When I started you cut your teeth on trimming chuck gliders and moved up through rubber, FF, Control Line and then onto RC, building a repairing your models all the way. Now people go to the model shop and get a RTF or ARTF and all the gear and because they can fly a Sim think they can fly for real and often fail, this is were I feel model shops should play a part and point them towards a club, the problem is of caurse some get the models from the internet (with little or no guidance at all). Gone are the days when I looked forward to the aeromodeller annual at Xmas to see what plans were in it.

A few in the clubs I'm a member of have learnt to fly and now starting to build models from kits but only one has gone on to building from plans.