Ever wanted to get into or improve your aerobatics?

[Martyn K]

Hi Peter

i am not suggesting for a moment that the skill level for a B is not important. If your skill level is such that you cannot fly or pass a B then you are not ready for competition. The skill required to put a basic schedule together accurately exceeds that required for a B test. My point was that the B is a potential deterrent to people taking part. I would have thought that anyone wishing to take part in a contest should be aware of what is expected in their flying capabilities. Knowledge of CAP658 and organising a flight line should not be a prerequisite.

Martyn

[Peter Jenkins]

Hi Martyn

I did try and get a dispensation for a B for aerobatic competitions to allow pilots to compete for one year before having to take their B. Unfortunately, the view from the BMFA was that this was not negotiable. Indeed, some aerobatic pilots also said that they would decline to fly if non B pilots were allowed to compete. So, I guess it's a B or no entry to aerobatic comps. This is not the case with the NPOD by the way or the Clubman events I talked about above.

I made a sloppy error in my post above when I said that the B was all about controlling the aircraft. It is much more than that of course. Safety, knowledge of air law, and, as you point out, how to organise a flight line are all included. The flying bit is only 1/4 of the B.

Peter

[Peter Jenkins]

Hi John, have added my comments against your points.

Posted by john stones 1 on 04/09/2015 15:17:39:

1 most clubs have lads who can trim a model and perform decent aerobatics so I disagree F3A is far from invisible at club level, most of us go Nats as well. Well, I guess we've been to different clubs then John. I've been to some clubs and been told that they have some very hot aerobatic pilots but when they fly they are clearly not up to F3A schedule standards.

2 Well I don't understand that one at all, not crediting the club flyer with much intellect there. Again, my observation of a number of Clubs that I have visited.

3 Disagree plenty capable models on the market. Depends whether you class IMAC type aerobats in this class. I'm talking about designs which have small control surfaces and a long tail moment arm. You can tame a 3D optimised aircraft to fly F3A manoeuvres - I started with a Capiche 140 - but you don't see these type of aircraft in use in F3A competitions because ultimately they are designed to do two types of flying and an F3A design is optimised to one type of flying. In IMAC you have to use scale airframes so that fixes the aircraft specification and IMAC requires both styles of flying.

6 Hmmm, now we're getting problems, what you fly Peter ? ever heard the phrase "it's got presence" and good question Masher. Some very good models well below 2mtre never saw anyone above clubman flying one. So what's being judged ? John, I started with a Wind 110, then Capiche 140, then 2 mtr Vanquish, then Oxai Amethyst (seriously second hand I should say) and now a 2 mtr Toxiris. I was beaten two years running by different pilots flying Angel 50s in Masters when I was flying 2 mtr models. I have a Monolog 70 that is perfectly capable of flying the FAI P15 schedule better than I can. I've heard some judges say that some 2 mtr aircraft don't present as well others do. One of our most talented young pilots flew a Black Horse Super Air all the way to Masters and won that class. What's being judged is the accuracy, gracefulness, size of the manoeuvre. Yes, it's all subjective but it's not true that you only succeed with 2 mtr aircraft. On the other hand, 2 mtr aircraft do fly extraordinarily well and can make a pilot look better than he is! At the end of the day, it's down to practise. At the highest level then other factors creep in but at national level that has not been my experience so far.

7 Some truth in that, there's some funny folk about, some truth in the amount of airspace needed to fly routines not fitting in with the clubs safe airspace as well. Box is more manageable with a smaller sized model though...you sure about the size limit Peter ? If you cannot fly at 150 mtrs out from the pilot's box and you want to fly a 2 mtr aircraft then you will need to fly a tighter schedule in order to stay in the box. Eventually, you'll breach the box though. Smaller aircraft need to be flown closer in so they are not just a speck in the sky e.g. a 110 size would be at around 120 mtrs and a 50 size at around 80 mtrs.

8 Travel time, to an extent, if you say you can do it on a budget model how can you then blame cost, other than petrol/diesel that is. I was meaning the cost of travel not the overall cost - didn't express it very well did I.

9 To be blunt the cost is keeping some who may have the talent, drive, commitment, away. You sure about the size limit Peter ? Not sure what you mean by the size limit John. The F3A weight limit for international comps is 5 Kg but in the UK, the GBR/CAA allows up to 7 Kg. Of course, you need a more powerful engine/motor with a heavier aircraft. See my comment on the use of the Black Horse Super Air earlier. I cannot stress enough that if you practice enough you can make a smaller model competitive against a bigger model flown by a less competent pilot. If both pilots are the same standard then the difference will be down to the mistakes made. Yes, some models present better than others but that's not just a size issue.

Contd in next post

Edited By Peter Jenkins on 05/09/2015 00:34:09

[Peter Jenkins]

10 Do you really believe that potential recruits will not feel at a disadvantage if they fly YS 63 or electric powered models against the 2 metre stuff ? if so are you using them ? The bigger stuff gets flown well out so you don't get boxed, the smaller stuff can be flown closer and stay within the box.. they look pretty much the same size to the judge. Myself and most club mates cannot see your reasoning, without any doubts at all I think the cost prevents you attracting people. You sure about the size limit Peter. John, all I can say is what I've seen. In national competition, a well flown YS63 model will beat a less well flown 2 mtr model - fact! If you want to take this to international level, that's a different matter. No one turns up at any competition with equipment that will place them at even a tiny disadvantage. You also need 2 aircraft ready to go for internationals - that is eye wateringly expensive but we are talking about a different level of competition compared with starting aerobatics and working your way up to the top of the domestic leagues. If you are at the top of the domestic leagues, you probably have ambitions to fly in international competition, hence you need a 2 mtr.

I don't know if that convinces you John, but if not, then we'll just have to accept that our experiences have been different. What I will say though is that F3A is like a drug and once in you tend to want to keep getting "better" airframes in the hope that you'll improve your scores. I can only speak for myself here, but I suspect that my scores would not be hugely different if I had stuck with the Wind 110 that I started with and practiced a lot more than I can manage today. Of course, you don't have to buy new - I now buy second/third/fourth hand airframes and that works for me. If I won the lottery then I might think about splashing out on a brand new machine but till then....

Peter

[Masher]

Posted by Peter Jenkins on 04/09/2015 20:45:12:

Posted by Masher on 04/09/2015 07:43:43:

4. To go into competition aerobatics requires a B certificate. This is perceived as being too difficult or not worth the bother to many. This is a pity as it is really a case of practising the right thing often enough to become consistent. I don't agree. I really am trying for B and have been for some time - now finding it difficult to nail down the examiners! I think a lot of the anti-B problem is that many people hate tests

8. Travel time and costs. Yes - I have nothing local (within 100m) that I can find. I am not prepared to travel to East Anglia not on cost but on time grounds

Martin, as you said when you responded, these are your personal views.

Re your point on 4, I was reflecting what I've found when talking to a lot of other pilots who want to get into aerobatics but see the B as a stumbling block. I can only say that if they think the B is the only thing stopping them then they haven't really understood that the B is all about controlling the aircraft well enough to do what you are required to do with it and that's the same in aerobatics. Yes I fully agree. I think that in my case, people aren't even interested in getting an A never mind B so the chance of getting support or understanding is low

Re your point on 8, perhaps you and Graeme Jones could get together since you are in roughly the same area of the country and see if you can get something going there. Do a pitch to your Area committee. You may be surprised at how supportive they might be. Thanks I will pm Graeme

Peter

[Ultymate]

I think a big issue with people attaining "B" or for that matter "A" tests is that numerous clubs don't have examiners within their club which obviously makes arranging test "appointments" far more difficult both with making arrangements with examiners and tying that in with our ever changeable weather. As has already been said the "B" is an easier prospect than flying your first turnaround schedules.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Cheers Peter

3 Yes I mean F3A style models, you named a few yourself most are being flown at our club as have numerous others, club flyers I know can spot the difference and understand it. Maybe the lads from Yorkshire are more observant

Anyway as I said, I wish you well with it, I can't fault a trier.

John

[Peter Jenkins]

Hi Ultymate, at the risk of stating the obvious, if Clubs don't have examiners, then they should approach their Area Achievement Scheme Coordinator and request help in getting examiners along. This might be an ACE in which case you will only need one ACE for a B test provided they are an ACE in the right discipline e.g. FW as opposed to Heli for a FW B.

[Martyn K]

At the UKCAA Montford Bridge event last Sunday, Steve Dunning brought along his new Solace 110 and I thought that some forumites - especially the builders - may be interested as this is a nice alternative to the ARTFs that are commercially available.

Its a 110 sized modern F3A, about 63" span designed for IC or electric. Steve has 2 prototypes on the go, one for each power plant and this version (the IC version) looks like its almost ready for final fitting out. Both prototypes have already been sold.

and

I understand that the model will be available as a kit with various options plus I am sure Steve will also do an ARTF for you if needed.

This was the first 'naked' model that I have seen of Steve's. Build quality and the 3 lightweight Glassfibre moulding are exemplary.

I will be having a part kit powered by an OS120FS pumped when available.

This is an unsolicited plug, but if you are interested, you may want to PM Steve Dunning on this forum

Martyn

[Simon Hopkins 1]

Has anyone considered using the internet to fly together? Maybe for pattern practice?

I know my Phoenix flight sim (Ver.5) has the facility to host a group flying sessions. I wonder if an evening during the week could be agreed upon? Perhaps this is worth investigating?

UK Pattern Practice

[Simon Hopkins 1]

I have just checked it out. It would be possible to set up a session. However I guess this is for those with the time, inclination and appropriate computer program. In this instance, if I were to be involved the program would have to be Phoenix. As an example I might set up a session (although others could do this at any coordinated time) every Tue at 9:45pm called 'UK Pattern Practice'. Others could log into this session and fly.

I'm chuckling as I write this as I have a feeling that this idea would help to identify and differentiate the young with time on their hands, and those with a more expansive experience of history. How many young guns are there competing in club and national events? Rhetoric..  Maybe the young and the electronically capable want to compete online?

Simon

Edited By Simon Hopkins 1 on 20/10/2015 22:00:31

[Simon Hopkins 1]

Martyn,

Very interested in the Solace 110. Is this still in development for sale?

Simon

[Peter Jenkins]

Simon

I have never found a sim much use when practicing aerobatics - perhaps it's just me! Flying together for pattern practice is not something I've seen in the real world but might be quite interesting in the virtual world where the consequences of flying in the same space are irrelevant.

Anything is worth exploring if it helps with flying the pattern but ultimately nothing beats the real thing. I am considering using my sim to help to learn how to fly compound manoeuvres i.e. rolling and looping at the same time.

Do let's know how you get on. Also would love to hear the experiences of others who are using flight sims for practising aerobatics.

Note Martyn's comment to contact Steve Dunning via a PM as he's the guy developing the Solace 110.

Peter

Edited By Peter Jenkins on 20/10/2015 23:54:23

[Simon Hopkins 1]

Well l tried doing the online session tonight. Two others joined in although I'm not sure who they were. I found the session was useful for stringing the sequence together more than a perfect flight.

[kiwibob]

Peter

At last I have managed to scrape through my FW B test.. I am interested in furthering my aim to do some competitive F3A flying. I realise my limitations due to age etc. but will have a go.. distance to events seems to be the biggest problem for me.. Lowestoft, Suffolk..

Bob

[Peter Jenkins]

Bob

Very well done on getting your B Certificate. If it's any help to you, I only took up F3A competition when I was passed 60! There are many more opportunities for practice when you are retired and practice is what it's all about. Well, that's not true - practicing the right thing is what it's all about!

There are currently 2 competitions in the East Anglia area that are run by the GBR/CAA. One is at Warboys and one at Stansted. After that, the next closest will be to the north of Birmingham and then near Benson.

You have already flown in an NPOD so you have some idea of what's involved. However, I will be running 4 Clubman events next year in the East Anglia Area so watch out for the announcements. Best way is to register for the East Anglia Area News by entering your name and email here.

The other thing to focus on is to settle on a suitable F3A airframe and get it trimmed out so that it is as perfect as you can get it. Flying a schedule becomes a good deal easier with a well trimmed airframe. Which airframe are you planning to use? There are a few good and relatively cheap F3A airframes around - you don't need to spend mega bucks at this stage! The other thing to do, if you have not done so already, is to register on the GBR/CAA forum and get registered. The For Sale and Wanted section is worth watching if you are looking for good second hand airframes.

Peter

[Willyuk]

Hi Bob,

well done on the B. I am at the same stage as you,having gained my B this year, except I have not made an NPOD yet due to the inclement weather this year causing postponements. I too am ancient, in January i hit 65 and as Peter says, at least I can practise whenever weather permits. Maybe we will have to be in a novice senior citizen section!!!I I can recommend the GBR/CAA forum, full of useful info and the only place to find used F3a equipment.

Maybe see you at a clubman event?

Al.

[kiwibob]

Thanks Peter

I have a Sebart Miss Wind. I bought it a while back, but have only flown a few times, as was concentrating on getting my FW "B" and found the Phoenix Yak a more "robust" contender.. ☺☺

Now I have my "B", I am moving from "Thumbs" to " pinching" the sticks.. you prolly don't remember, but you and Phil suggested waiting until I passed the "B" before going down that road.. well I am now doing the finger and thumbs, and am slowly getting there.. I also have a Loaded Dice with Hanno .61 which I really like flying. I am hoping Lee Shelly will give me some advice on setting it up.. I will do as you suggest re the GBR/Caa forum, thanks..

Also, thanks, Willyuk for your comments, .. looking forward to seeing you soon.. I don't mind where I get in the comps.. it all sems a great adventure ☺☺

Cheers

Bob

[Peter Jenkins]

Hi Bob,

A Miss Wind eh! Well, that will be a great airframe and will get you all the way to Masters and probably FAI if that's what you want!

While you are transitioning from thumbs to finger and thumb, try going the whole hog and use a tray. Be warned, the transition is not something that happens overnight - it took me around 3 months before my flying ability was back to where I was flying thumbs only. However, after that, progress was much better than with thumbs only. In particular, my habit of tilting the Tx towards me as the pressure rose, making it difficult to move my thumbs correctly, became a thing of the past. Having a solid base on which to rest your wrists while using your finger and thumb was a huge advantage to me, especially when flying long inverted lines.

Galaxy Models used to sell a great Tx tray but Hobby King also has one on offer. You can find more using Google but only get those that have hand rests on either side of the Tx - they are what make the difference!

Peter

[kiwibob]

Thanks for comments, Peter.

I have joined the East Anglia Area News, and also GBRCAA

I have a tray without handrests for my 2.4g TX, as I was concerned about reverting to thumbs in case of problems. I also have a DIY tray with handrests, made for me by John Straw, see pix below. I am using this with older planes on 35mhz, and am slowly getting there..

fullsize pix in my photo album

Cheers

Bob

[Peter Jenkins]

Good man!

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Willyuk]

Dave, welcome to the club of Peter's converts. If you are looking for a classic f3a model I can recommend the curare that is available from schweighoff, on an os55ax and tuned pipe it flys really well. One word of warning, if someone offers you the chance to fly a full 2m Jobbie, refuse, run away, find an excuse to say no, otherwise you will be on a slippery slope. That's what happened to me ( you know who you are !)

Good luck

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Peter Jenkins]

Hi Dave

Glad you found the thread useful. I note you say you passed your B 25 years ago and that you have had an 8 year break. Can I suggest that you try and get back to the B standard before getting into F3A aerobatics proper. It's worth going as far as taking a B test as that is an excellent way in to check that your aircraft control is back up to scratch. It will help enormously when you then get to grips with the Clubman schedule. It is certainly what I would do to get back after 8 years away.

I can recommend a couple of World Models aircraft. The Spot On 50 and the Groovy 50 - 3A. I've flown a club mates Spot On 50 and that's a really good aerobatic aircraft. Unfortunately, it appears to be out of stock. However, I did notice that the Groovy 50 - 3A (there is a 3D which is optimised to 3D flying so best avoided if you just want to fly F3A which is what the 3A is designed for). You will find details on the Groovy 50 - 3A here. Helpfully, there is a link to a magazine review. The cost of the airframe is modest and it takes a 50-70 four stroke. I would have thought a good 53 2 stroke would be an alternative. I have never flown this aircraft but the write up appears to give it a thumbs up.

Alternatively, an excellent F3A airframe the Ionos (from Hobby King) is an excellent buy. It used to be sold under the B J Craft banner as the Monolog. I have a Monolog and using HK sourced motors and ESCs you can get it up an flying for a relatively modest amount. The Monolog/Ionos will fly the FAI schedule and, needless to say, flying the Clubman schedule is a piece of cake for the airframe if not the pilot!  Incidentally, the Monolog was sold as being capable of having either IC or electric power.  You will just need to source a couple of standard engine mounts and a tank to convert the Ionos to IC power.

I don't know if you have had the opportunity to fly an electric F3A model of 50 size. I've always found that a 50 size electric motor is significantly more powerful compared with a 50 glow (2 stroke) or 70 glow (4 stroke). There are advantages and disadvantages with electric with the biggest disadvantage of needing to buy a lot of stuff to get going with electric. The advantages are that power delivery is much more immediate and reliable compared with an IC engine. Electrics are also much quieter which could be an issue at some flying sites. Do not be put off by the duration issue with an electric. I can get 12 minutes easily with my Monolog using either a 5S 5000 or 6S 4000 pack. It only takes 5 mins to fly a Clubman schedule and less than 8 mins to fly the FAI schedule so having a 15 min flight time is unneccesary for aerobatic flying. If you are flying the schedule it is hard work and concentrating for more than 10 mins is difficult.

Hope that helps but please feel free to ask any questions you may have and I'm sure you'll get an answer and not just from me.

Peter

Edited By Peter Jenkins on 28/11/2015 01:22:37