Ever wanted to get into or improve your aerobatics?

[Peter Jenkins]

Andy - aerobatics is aerobatics. This thread is about flying aerobatics regardless of whether it's classic, F3A or IMAC. I've focused more on F3A because that's where my interest lies. I've said it before and I'll say it again. If you want to fly in today's F3A you don't need to spend multi thousands of pounds to get into the sport.

If you want to be the best in the sport then that's a different matter. If you want to fly in an international comp then you need 2 airframes - just imagine going to all the expense of qualifying to represent your country and then you get to the competition and break your one and only aircraft! Hence the need for 2 and that drives the cost.

For domestic competition, many classic aerobatic aircraft would be able to compete at Clubman and Intermediate level. Some would probably be able to give a good account of themselves with the current Masters schedule although any knife edge manoeuvre will be a greater challenge than today's designs experience. It's the pilot's skills that matter more than the airframe.

[graeme jones]

Peter - I made it to the Nats to fly in F3A Clubman. Flew in both rounds on Saturday, first flight was dire, but then I hadn't flown since the N Berks comp at the end of May because of health problems and poor weather on the few days when I could have. Second flight was much better thanks to some help from Adrian who called the sequence for me. I couldn't stay for the rest of the weekend, had to come home Sunday morning after making my apologies to Matt. The problem was a lack of sleep (caused by the overnight noise in the "quiet" part of the campsite) threatening a return of my poor health, which could have made the return 200 mile drive impossible.

Biggest disappointment with the competition was that there wasn't any. In spite of all your efforts and encouragement with this thread over nearly 2 years, mine was the only entry in Clubman. Intermediate and Masters weren't much better with just two entries in each. Come on guys, WHERE WERE YOU? Are there reasons that can be addressed, such as the format of the comp over 3 days? It can't be the standard of flying, you would only have had to beat me, so what's the problem?

I'm going to take up the issue of overnight noise on the campsite with the BMFA, since there's a simple solution. If anyone wants to make any other suggestions which would lead to an incentive to compete next year, but doesn't want to contact the BMFA themselves, please PM either me or Peter so that we can pass them on. And as my boss used to say, don't tell me the problem, tell me the solution.

Graeme

[Peter Jenkins]

Graeme - well done! I do hope that we can get some more pilots interested in flying the Clubman schedule next year.

[Willyuk]

Well I hope to give it a go. This year was dedicated to the B test. Next year is get ready for the clubman. Much depends on practise time and some help. Unfortunately I am usually away during the winter so flying is a summer time activity only but with some luck I will be the other guy with Graeme trying the clubman!

[chris Bond - Bondaero]

Hi Graham,

Congratulations on your first Nationals. A real achievement to compete at the premier event. Perhaps we could try to use this thread to understand why there were not more entries. If we can identify the reasons the perhaps we address them.

[SR 71]

I came across from Cyprus for the Nats and spent a long time at the F3a , the thing that most struck me was the lack of young people flying in it, I enjoyed what I saw and wished I could have taken part, but the cost of transporting a model was to high for that

The other thing was I had a long chat with Graeme ( did not know who he was then ) but he was flying his own design and built model and that was what attracted me to talk to him.

I got a couple of pictures of him as he waited to fly

What a pleasant guy and I wish him success in the future

[graeme jones]

SR71 - thanks for that - nice pics too, but they show up my mismatch of colour for the cowl! I wasn't so happy by Sunday morning after 2 nights without sleep. If the noisy campsite issue can't be sorted I'll be in a B&B next year. As Peter has said several times on this thread, most if not all the F3A pilots are friendly and helpful. It's not an atmosphere of dog-eat-dog, cut-throat competition. Some pilots get very nervous but there's a big element of fun as well.

Chris - I don't really understand the lack of entries but then if you'd asked me 2 years ago if I would ever compete in the Nats I would have laughed and said never. That I did is all Peter's fault.

Willyuk - it would be great to see you there, and perhaps at some of the GBRCAA comps as well?

Peter - yes I hope so too. I'll email you with some ideas on that.

Graeme

[Martyn K]

Posted by chris Bond - Bondaero on 31/08/2015 22:09:01:

Hi Graham,

Congratulations on your first Nationals. A real achievement to compete at the premier event. Perhaps we could try to use this thread to understand why there were not more entries. If we can identify the reasons the perhaps we address them.

You could apply Maslows theory of hierarchical needs to answer this type of question but (obviously - with a different needs structure)

Q1. If you had absolutely NO restrictions (cost, time, travel, other commitments, family, health, suitable skills, fear of failure, whatever else etc.), would you take part in an F3A competition? i.e. Do you REALLY want to do this?

If the answer is yes, then you/we (from the UKCAA as well as GBRCAA) need to understand what the blockers are and then try and remove them.

Some blockers can be addressed fairly easily, this thread has gone some way to help remove the skills blocker, but ONLY if people WANT to fly competitively. I have my own views on what (some of) the problems may be and will happily share them later, but I suspect that only 1% of those who have read or contributed to the thread would answer "Yes" to the first question..Its a shame we cant set up our own polls within a thread..

However, I could run a SurveyMonkey survey if needed..

Martyn

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Always had an interest in this type of model and style of flying, as have a lot of clubmates. The why you don't attract more at clubman level is answered pretty much the same by most of the people interested that I know.

Flown at clubman level myself and have a few winners medals pretty easy to win though when I was only flyer . I'll give you my twopenneth later if you want, but can tell you now, lack of time, travel nor commitment played any part in my no longer doing it.

John

[Masher]

I was going to comment on the lack of young people as SR 71 has. It seems that majority of comments on Peter's thread are from us senior flyers.

I would like to get involved more in aerobatics but I think lack of confidence is the main problem. (apart from ability that is). And isn't this the problem as you get older? You are more worried about getting things wrong. I have become more involved in music in later years and here they make allowances in grade exams for old gits because we tend to over think everything and take it all too seriously.

[graeme jones]

Martyn - I would answer No to your question, because if there were absolutely no restrictions such as you list I wouldn't be flying model aircraft at all, I'd be flying full-size or travelling around the world or....................... (sorry, daydreaming). The fact is that I do fly model aircraft and have done for 55 years out of my 61. Why? Because I enjoy it and can afford it. Why F3A? Same answer. I used to race model power boats but stopped when it became too expensive. The main reason I can see for a lack of interest in competitions is that most model aircraft clubs simply aren't set up to promote it. Contrast that with most model car and model boat clubs where competitions are often the driving force of the club. There are many other factors, as you say, but until we can get clubs interested I don't think the number of competitors will increase.

So, how do we get CLUBS interested in promoting/hosting competitions?

Graeme

[Peter Jenkins]

Hmm some interesting thoughts there. I'm going to come back a bit later in the week once our Area meeting has been held to let you know what I hope to do about this issue as I'm seeking funding from this meeting for an idea of mine.

[ASH.]

I was at the Nats this year and saw some of the competition flying at the F3A line.. it was a very relaxed affair, kind-of my style. I also spoke to a few people there and found everyone to be friendly and helpful as I was expecting. Maybe F3A people are a different class. I hope I can join in to be a part of this at some stage.

 

Reading some of the posts above I feel people have things to say but don't for fear of being viewed critical of the sport. I wish they would.. I as many others I'm sure would love to hear informed peoples' views and opinions. One of the reasons I'm drawn to this type of flying is that grey matter is put to use continually whilst having fun.

At my club I'm the only one who has an interest in precision aeros and so I'm on my own without any help and critique to my flying which is what I need. I value constructive criticism highly.. in all areas of life. Maybe I will look at clubs further afield.

Also, I find the general R/C market does not cater for F3A models in the smaller reasonably priced sector (£150-200) where newbies can start and get a feel for what it's all about. Scale, 3D, plug&play foamies are all the rage.. almost no models for what I want to do. I fly ic and refuse to convert (love my engines) so that makes it doubly difficult. I cannot believe F3A models cost anymore to make than other types. So, maybe that is why you need to throw ample dosh to get in this game and the discipline is seen as elitist.

 

I did meet a very nice chap, Angus Balfour who was flying IMAC but had come over to watch F3A. We had a really good chat and he showed me his 41% 330 mount. If anyone has his contact details please pm me. The man has a wealth of knowledge and is just so cool with it.

 

Edited By ASH. on 01/09/2015 23:18:52

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

No disagreement from me that they're helpful people nor any doubts about them being a friendly bunch, no problem with giving my views either, however I would be interested in Peters views on it first, so as not to influence his thoughts.

John

[Peter Jenkins]

Well, at this evening's Area Meeting my proposal to run 4 Clubman events in 2016 was warmly welcomed and funding approved. My idea is that the 4 events will be run at different Clubs spread around the area. Clubs wishing to participate can nominate up to 2 pilots - maximum 16 pilots. 2 Clubs have already volunteered their fields for this activity. As the East Anglia Area is funding this then first crack will go to Clubs in this Area but if there are vacancies I'd open it out to other Areas. If you want to find out if your Club is in the East Anglia Area then the list is here.

Minimum qualification will be an A cert. Someone has suggested limiting the size of the aircraft but as this is not a competition I'm inclined to allow anything provided it's below 7 Kgs and obeys the host Club noise regs. I would hope that any UK CAA pilot who wanted to run his airframe though the GBR/CAA Clubman schedule would give this a go. Like the NPOD I'll have some experienced aerobatic pilots on hand as tutors and we'll probably get one of them to fly the Clubman schedule to provide a yardstick.

Like the NPODs, if pilots wanted their last flight judged, we could provide that but the scores would just be for their own interest and not be part of a competition.

In due course this might turn into an inter-Club aerobatic competition but more importantly might it also act as a gentle way to try out aerobatics, and perhaps move on to flying them competitively by entering a formal competition and even the Nats - perhaps?

Be interested in your views on whether this is what you think might tempt pilots to give aerobatics a try - especially if they have a Club mate with them. By having a number of Clubs attend I hope to build bridges between like minded pilots in different clubs.

[Peter Jenkins]

And - here are my thoughts on why so few folks go into aerobatics these days.

1. Most clubs don't have practicing F3A pilots to showcase this discipline so it's invisible.

2. Many pilots tend to think of aerobatics being 3D, because they see this more often, and they don't think they have the reactions to cope with this type of flying. F3A rarely requires lightning fast reactions as you fly large manoeuvres quite slowly.

3. Easier, and cheaper, to buy 3D optimised airframes than F3A or precision aerobatics airframes. There is a limited number of good F3A airframes out there that don't break the bank.

4. To go into competition aerobatics requires a B certificate. This is perceived as being too difficult or not worth the bother to many. This is a pity as it is really a case of practising the right thing often enough to become consistent.

5. Perception that their being a highly competitive atmosphere

6. Belief that you need to spend a lot of money to get the blingiest kit available! Not true!

7. Too little opportunity to fly a turn round schedule as too many people are flying. Perhaps a little encouragement from Club committees to create some space for those who would like to develop their aerobatics by permitting them to fly on their own - even a full FAI schedule only takes 8 mins to fly - Clubman takes 5-6 mins.

8. Travel time and costs.

9. Lack of time, money but, most importantly, desire and willingness to plug away at what looks a daunting challenge when beginning. Courage mon brave!

[Masher]

Morning Peter

Well done and I wish I was in the East Anglia catchment area (not really, I'll stay in Herefordshire!)

My personal situation in response to your points is:

1. Most clubs don't have practicing F3A pilots to showcase this discipline so it's invisible. Absolutely

2. Many pilots tend to think of aerobatics being 3D, because they see this more often, and they don't think they have the reactions to cope with this type of flying. F3A rarely requires lightning fast reactions as you fly large manoeuvres quite slowly. No - I can see the difference!

3. Easier, and cheaper, to buy 3D optimised airframes than F3A or precision aerobatics airframes. There is a limited number of good F3A airframes out there that don't break the bank. I don't think price is an issue - and you can get a classic set-up quite cheap Eg Gangster/Irvine 53

4. To go into competition aerobatics requires a B certificate. This is perceived as being too difficult or not worth the bother to many. This is a pity as it is really a case of practising the right thing often enough to become consistent. I don't agree. I really am trying for B and have been for some time - now finding it difficult to nail down the examiners! I think a lot of the anti-B problem is that many people hate tests

5. Perception that their being a highly competitive atmosphere Agree

6. Belief that you need to spend a lot of money to get the blingiest kit available! Not true! Agree - I've aquired a couple of set-up's quite reasonably priced. The interesting thing is that these have been purchased from "senior/experienced" flyers who don't want them anymore - why is that?

7. Too little opportunity to fly a turn round schedule as too many people are flying. Perhaps a little encouragement from Club committees to create some space for those who would like to develop their aerobatics by permitting them to fly on their own - even a full FAI schedule only takes 8 mins to fly - Clubman takes 5-6 mins. MY BIGGEST ABSOLUTELY! Only yesterday I had to wait until certain people went home before I could fly a schedule in peace

8. Travel time and costs. Yes - I have nothing local (within 100m) that I can find. I am not prepared to travel to East Anglia not on cost but on time grounds

9. Lack of time, money but, most importantly, desire and willingness to plug away at what looks a daunting challenge when beginning. Courage mon brave! Not in my case

 

Let's hope your initiative gains momentum and more areas follow the model (no pun) you are suggesting!

Martin

Edited By Masher on 04/09/2015 07:44:51

[Willyuk]

Al.

Hi Peter and well done!

Can you just clear up whether one has to be nominated by a club? What happens if there are say only three interested clubs? Can you open it out to more pilots from those clubs or open it up to members of Non Interested clubs? As you know I have become interested in precision flying after reading your thread but I am at the very early stages of learning the fly a schedule. I would welcome and need, help and advice in a non competative arena. Of course the chance to meet and talk with others in the same boat would be great. So the chance to practise, get advice and meet others would be very welcome, especially if not having to travel too far!

On the reasons why people do not get involved, I will follows Mashers example and insert my own thoughts into your post:

1. Most clubs don't have practicing F3A pilots to showcase this discipline so it's invisible. IN MY CASE I AM LUCKY AS I AM NEAR YOU!

2. Many pilots tend to think of aerobatics being 3D, because they see this more often, and they don't think they have the reactions to cope with this type of flying. F3A rarely requires lightning fast reactions as you fly large manoeuvres quite slowly. I HAD HEARD OF F3A ( IAM OLD ENOUGH TO REMEMBER HANNO PRETTNER ETC) AND WAS NOT OVERLY INTERESTED IN 3D. BUT INITIALLY THOUGH F3A TOTALLY OUT OF REACH

3. Easier, and cheaper, to buy 3D optimised airframes than F3A or precision aerobatics airframes. There is a limited number of good F3A airframes out there that don't break the bank.TRUE TO SOME EXTENT AND 3D NEEDS LESS ROOM, AN IMPORTANT FACTOR, I FLY AT TWO SITES ONE IS GREAT FOR F3 THE OTHER IS IMPOSSIBLE

4. To go into competition aerobatics requires a B certificate. This is perceived as being too difficult or not worth the bother to many. This is a pity as it is really a case of practising the right thing often enough to become consistent. I AGREE, THE B HAS A REPUTATION AND MOST PEOPLE DONT WANT THE BOTHER, I DID IT AS SPUR TO BETTER FLYING, MOST PEOPLE ARE NOT INTERESTED THEY JUST WANT TO FLY AROUND AND HAVE FUN

5. Perception that their being a highly competitive atmosphere. TRUE, SO HOPEFULLY YOUR INITIATIVE ON LOCAL MEETINGS WILL HELP!

6. Belief that you need to spend a lot of money to get the blingiest kit available! Not true! AGREED NOT TRUE, BUT I STILL WANT A CITRIN!

7. Too little opportunity to fly a turn round schedule as too many people are flying. Perhaps a little encouragement from Club committees to create some space for those who would like to develop their aerobatics by permitting them to fly on their own - even a full FAI schedule only takes 8 mins to fly - Clubman takes 5-6 mins. SPOT ON, WHEN ITS BUSY ITS JUST NOT POSSIBLE, ONE HAS TO PRACTISE INDIVIDUAL MANOEVERS

8. Travel time and costs. YEP, I ONLY HAVE A LIMITED AMOUNT OF BOTH

9. Lack of time, money but, most importantly, desire and willingness to plug away at what looks a daunting challenge when beginning. Courage mon brave! THATS WHY WE NEED TO MEET OTHERS, FOR SUPPRT AND ENCOURAGEMENT

keep up your efforts, I am sure you will get rewards.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Well firstly I'll wish you good luck with your efforts, I hope it takes off for you.

The reason I don't do it ? I found the waiting for my flight difficult, never suffered with nerves much, but found it hard to switch on when it was my go, maybe had their been more in my class we could have called for each other and interacted and kept focused. The other lads flying in other classes were all very friendly and helpful but it's not the same when you don't have a group to belong/compete with. Compete against yourself, aim at promotion scores ? well it's not in my make up to travel 100+ miles to do that, I got bored with it and my scores got worse rather than better.

John

[Martyn K]

My thoughts Maestro...

Posted by Peter Jenkins on 04/09/2015 01:39:50:

And - here are my thoughts on why so few folks go into aerobatics these days.

1. Most clubs don't have practicing F3A pilots to showcase this discipline so it's invisible.

Agreed - compared with 3D most of our club members are singularly unimpressed with F3A - consider it boring to watch so why bother. (What is more exciting to watch - a Harrier at 1m or a slow odd shaped loop at 150-200m altitude?) There is also a lack of competitive spirit within most clubs (including mine) so disinterest in developing the skills to fly precision aerobatics. This lack of spirit is (I think) a modern thing. When I were a lad etc - - but seriously, even as juniors we would build models and compete within the club, this developed into inter club events, attending club galas, area centralised, nationals etc. We accepted that we weren't good enough to win then went away and built something that hopefully would be better and then tried again and again. People play competitive sports - even kick around football for fun - why not competitive aeromodelling (any/all disciplines)?. My thoughts are that because club flying (with only 1 notable exception that I can think of - Peterborough MFC) is now simply a collection of people sharing a flying space and the demography is (mainly) elderly, that initial launch-pad into competitive aeromodelling has gone. We need more younger and middle aged people taking part.

2. Many pilots tend to think of aerobatics being 3D, because they see this more often, and they don't think they have the reactions to cope with this type of flying. F3A rarely requires lightning fast reactions as you fly large manoeuvres quite slowly.

Agreed - Personally, I would suggest that F3A type aerobatics is easier to fly than 3D, but harder to fly properly. More people attempt to fly 3D because the airframes are fairly cheap - e.g. Cougar 2000 etc. and are readily available from most LMS

3. Easier, and cheaper, to buy 3D optimised airframes than F3A or precision aerobatics airframes. There is a limited number of good F3A airframes out there that don't break the bank.

Perhaps there is an unknown demand for a club 25 type aerobatic model/class/event or electric equivalent. Medium sized models that definitely do not break the bank, could be kitted for less that £100 and fitted out for another £50-£100 or so. Look at the interest generated by the Cambria Funfighter Pylon Racing run by Daren Graham. Lots of interest and importantly participation in a very low cost but competitive event.

4. To go into competition aerobatics requires a B certificate. This is perceived as being too difficult or not worth the bother to many. This is a pity as it is really a case of practising the right thing often enough to become consistent.

This is a barmy requirement. May be a necessity to limit numbers (some chance), but an 'A' should be sufficient unless its a public event - NATS etc. We should be removing blockers - not adding them. I know of some members in our club - who are far better flyers than me, absolutely REFUSE to take part in the achievement scheme. I cant believe that we are unique with this situation.

5. Perception that their being a highly competitive atmosphere.

My experience of SMAE/BMFA competitions is that they are great fun - a meeting of like minds, sharing ideas with a contest thrown in for good measure. John Stones has identified 1 issue with flying aerobatics - the waiting - a lot of travel to make perhaps only 3 or 4 flights. That needs to be accepted as a 'cost' of competing - offset that against the amount of practice required

6. Belief that you need to spend a lot of money to get the blingiest kit available! Not true!

Agreed - certainly not at the level we are discussing. In fact this is one of those perceptions that need to be refuted whole-heartedly and demonstrated that it is a fallacy.

7. Too little opportunity to fly a turn round schedule as too many people are flying. Perhaps a little encouragement from Club committees to create some space for those who would like to develop their aerobatics by permitting them to fly on their own - even a full FAI schedule only takes 8 mins to fly - Clubman takes 5-6 mins.

You can add to this that many (especially mine) club sites are not suitable for practicing turn around schedules. Trees etc in the wrong places - makes practice very difficult

8. Travel time and costs.

I think that there needs to be more events held within regions - the old concept of area centralised competitions. People are more likely to attend regularly (and get in the habit of attending regularly which I think is an important and often overlooked point) if events are held within 100 miles of their home, preferably within 50 miles or 90 minutes travel. I think that one of the reasons that SMAE/BMFA regions were originally set up to establish and limit the need for excessive travel to competitions.

9. Lack of time, money but, most importantly, desire and willingness to plug away at what looks a daunting challenge when beginning. Courage mon brave!

If you want to do this, then its simply a matter of setting personal priorities although I would suggest that lack of or too much (unlikely) Money is a separate issue.

[Martyn K]

(Typical - post too long and split over 2 pages ) Previous page for the main element of waffle..

Part 2

 

I really hope that your regional initiative is successful Peter and that it is replicated to other regions in 2017. One of the best ideas I have seen for several years

I remember saying earlier that I thought that only 1% of the readers of this thread were really interested in competitive aerobatics. That hasn't been refuted (so far)! What I would like to hear is from that 99% is to find out what they would want changing so they may consider flying competitively.. Now THAT is a challenge

Martyn

Edited By Martyn K on 04/09/2015 15:07:55

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

1 most clubs have lads who can trim a model and perform decent aerobatics so I disagree F3A is far from invisible at club level, most of us go Nats as well.

2 Well I don't understand that one at all, not crediting the club flyer with much intellect there.

3 Disagree plenty capable models on the market.

4 Yes some very capable folk get in a tizz if you mention a B test, far less stressful than competing though.

5 Yes competition is competitive good lads though.

6 Hmmm, now we're getting problems, what you fly Peter ? ever heard the phrase "it's got presence" and good question Masher. Some very good models well below 2mtre never saw anyone above clubman flying one. So what's being judged ?

7 Some truth in that, there's some funny folk about, some truth in the amount of airspace needed to fly routines not fitting in with the clubs safe airspace as well. Box is more manageable with a smaller sized model though...you sure about the size limit Peter ?

8 Travel time, to an extent, if you say you can do it on a budget model how can you then blame cost, other than petrol/diesel that is.

9 To be blunt the cost is keeping some who may have the talent, drive, commitment, away. You sure about the size limit Peter ?

10 Do you really believe that potential recruits will not feel at a disadvantage if they fly YS 63 or electric powered models against the 2 metre stuff ? if so are you using them ? The bigger stuff gets flown well out so you don't get boxed, the smaller stuff can be flown closer and stay within the box.. they look pretty much the same size to the judge. Myself and most club mates cannot see your reasoning, without any doubts at all I think the cost prevents you attracting people. You sure about the size limit Peter.

John

Edited By john stones 1 on 04/09/2015 15:22:27

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Yes I identified the waiting, it was my problem I couldn't deal with it not any sort of criticism, I also pointed out how I could have felt more switched on if others had been there. Try turning up every time and being only flyer ...the enthusiasm is difficult to maintain.

John

 

Edited By john stones 1 on 04/09/2015 16:05:27

[graeme jones]

Peter - well done for getting some funding, always the most difficult bit. Not sure it would work for this area though, it's a very long way from one end to the other and most people just won't travel. Perhaps I'll have another go at contacting local clubs with a view to forming a South Wales group. Tried a couple of years ago and didn't have a single reply. The new owner of my LMS is the BMFA SW area Education Co-Ordinator so I'll run it past him as well.

I'm planning to do some practice this weekend for the GBRCAA Championship event at Hurley, but I'm the only entry yet for Clubman. Come on guys, come and have a go!

Graeme

[Peter Jenkins]

Posted by Masher on 04/09/2015 07:43:43:

4. To go into competition aerobatics requires a B certificate. This is perceived as being too difficult or not worth the bother to many. This is a pity as it is really a case of practising the right thing often enough to become consistent. I don't agree. I really am trying for B and have been for some time - now finding it difficult to nail down the examiners! I think a lot of the anti-B problem is that many people hate tests

8. Travel time and costs. Yes - I have nothing local (within 100m) that I can find. I am not prepared to travel to East Anglia not on cost but on time grounds

Martin, as you said when you responded, these are your personal views.

Re your point on 4, I was reflecting what I've found when talking to a lot of other pilots who want to get into aerobatics but see the B as a stumbling block. I can only say that if they think the B is the only thing stopping them then they haven't really understood that the B is all about controlling the aircraft well enough to do what you are required to do with it and that's the same in aerobatics.

Re your point on 8, perhaps you and Graeme Jones could get together since you are in roughly the same area of the country and see if you can get something going there. Do a pitch to your Area committee. You may be surprised at how supportive they might be.

Peter