National Model Flying Centre

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Ok, so my club has an area delegate and we can discuss this matter in our club and charge our delegate to go to area meeting and represent our views. Although given that such views are likely to be as varied as those expressed here that's a far from simple task.

In turn the area committee can then debate the issue and it has a delegate at national level who can represent the area's collective view on this issue - even more dilluted and garbled by now! And so the national committee debates the matter and it makes a final decision.

Well in 1950 that was probably acceptable - the best that could reasonably be achieved. But this is 2014. We have the internet, we have the ability to set up national debates that can involve every member. Most importantly we have the ability to set up secure on-line voting systems where every member is equal and every member can express their individual decision. This is what a modern transparent democratic organisation looks like. Not delegates to sub-committees - that's old fashioned trades union ways and we rightly criticised such practices.

And before someone says "Oh yes in an ideal world, but that would cost far too much to implement" I'd say this:

1. smaller organisations than BMFA do this and perfectly successfully.

2. We are debating a project that will cost many millions - a few tens of thousands to ensure that any decision to proceed is properly democratic within the modern meaning of that word can't be unreasonable surely.

Or is it that those "at the top" of the very flat pyramid fear that such a move would effectively remove their power to make decisions among themselves?

BEB

[PatMc]

Posted by Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 20/08/2014 14:15:44:

But this is 2014. We have the internet, we have the ability to set up national debates that can involve every member. Most importantly we have the ability to set up secure on-line voting systems where every member is equal and every member can express their individual decision.

Except that not every member does have the internet or the desire to be connected to it or to the desire to learn how to use it.
Bearing in mind the tiny percentage of members who voted in the online poll perhaps the old method is actualy more democratic.

[Lee Smalley]

Posted by PatMc on 20/08/2014 14:53:43:

Posted by Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 20/08/2014 14:15:44:

But this is 2014. We have the internet, we have the ability to set up national debates that can involve every member. Most importantly we have the ability to set up secure on-line voting systems where every member is equal and every member can express their individual decision.

Except that not every member does have the internet or the desire to be connected to it or to the desire to learn how to use it.
Bearing in mind the tiny percentage of members who voted in the online poll perhaps the old method is actualy more democratic.

no sorry but thats just plain wrong Pat, more members would have access to internet than do not (hobbyking anyone) and the old way has never more democratic thats way it is the old way, it is called the old way because no one does it that way anymore as it is rubbish!! the BMFA is old fashioned in every thing it does and this survey call it what you want is just another example

1. BMFA dart to encourage young kids .....please !!!

2. no subscription to the insurance on line......please!!!

3. BMFA news content ...please!!

personally i never even knew the vote or whatever it was was going on, as i never really read the BMFA news and only the BMFA classifieds i never saw it in any of the big mags (and i get 3 of them) and i never got a letter in the post, and if the survey was carried out in a manner as has been mentioned here, ( 1 question and if you did not like the idea at the start then your views were ignored ) then it is a national disgrace and whoever set that up should have to answer some serious questions

i could go on but i think you get the point

[PatMc]

If the BMFA were to go ahead with a National Model Flying Centre it would be a financial gamble (albeit assessed in advance by the feasibility study) that could lead to the association becoming insolvent unless the NMFC was set up as a seperate company under the umbrella of the BMFA. It would be prudent to take this or similar action to limit the liabilty.
In which case it would be more sensible for the people who want the NMFC to go about securing the necessary funding from the financial market independently of the BMFA, run it as a commercial enterprise and perhaps offer contractural arrangements to the association for regular but occasional use of the centres facilities.

[PatMc]

Posted by Lee Smalley on 20/08/2014 15:10:21:

Posted by PatMc on 20/08/2014 14:53:43:Lee

Posted by Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 20/08/2014 14:15:44:

But this is 2014. We have the internet, we have the ability to set up national debates that can involve every member. Most importantly we have the ability to set up secure on-line voting systems where every member is equal and every member can express their individual decision.

Except that not every member does have the internet or the desire to be connected to it or to the desire to learn how to use it.
Bearing in mind the tiny percentage of members who voted in the online poll perhaps the old method is actualy more democratic.

no sorry but thats just plain wrong Pat, more members would have access to internet than do not (hobbyking anyone) and the old way has never more democratic thats way it is the old way, it is called the old way because no one does it that way anymore as it is rubbish!! the BMFA is old fashioned in every thing it does and this survey call it what you want is just another example

1. BMFA dart to encourage young kids .....please !!!

2. no subscription to the insurance on line......please!!!

3. BMFA news content ...please!!

personally i never even knew the vote or whatever it was was going on, as i never really read the BMFA news and only the BMFA classifieds i never saw it in any of the big mags (and i get 3 of them) and i never got a letter in the post, and if the survey was carried out in a manner as has been mentioned here, ( 1 question and if you did not like the idea at the start then your views were ignored ) then it is a national disgrace and whoever set that up should have to answer some serious questions

i could go on but i think you get the point

No Lee, I don't get whatever point you think you've made.
I think you are completely wrong, in fact some of your own post contradicts your sentiments.

[Lee Smalley]

I think you are completely wrong, in fact some of your own post contradicts your sentiments.

please do list them i will be happy to clarify them,

how can you possibly say more people in the bmfa do not have access to the internet than do, i am not sure what where you get that one from, most of the older guys in our club 90% or so have the internet even if it is just for hobbyking and holidays, if you honestly think that then you really need to go and ask a few people as your miles behind

 

the tiny percentage of the votes actually cast is more a display of how well it was advertised and how well the general membership was informed of it than anything else, nothing to do with who has internet

Edited By Lee Smalley on 20/08/2014 15:43:37

[Dave Hopkin]

I agree wholeheartedly with BEB, the BMFA Web Site is very one way, there is no Members area, no forum, to highlight how outdated the web site is, the "Contact Us" page only offers either a postal address or a email address - not even a form to collect an email directly from with in the web site

Lets face it the discussion about a National Model Flying Centre should be being carried on in a forum on the BMFA Web Site, not a commercial companies forum for gods sake!!!

Nothing turns the "yoof" of today off faster that old foggie website

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Peter Christy]

1) The BMFA has *asked* its members for their views on a NFC. It appears that very few have bothered to respond, though plenty want to sound off here!

2) The BMFA used to have a forum. It was closed down because of the torrent of abuse that was going on there and the threats of legal action over it. As a result, all the (volunteer!) moderators quit. If any of those complaining about the absence of a BMFA forum want to volunteer as moderators, I'm sure their applications will be well received.

3) The BMFA is not actually doing anything about a NFC at present, other than consult its membership. I know when it was raised whilst I was on the Council, nearly all the Council members were dead against it. I doubt if much has changed. It would take an overwhelming majority of the membership in favour of this proposal for it to go ahead.

4) So what is everyone so het up about?????

--

Pete

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Dave Hopkin]

Why was the BMFA forum a "torrent of abuse" when (presumably) much the same contributors post here?

If a BMFA Forum was available only to BFMA Members then any abuse could be very robustly deal with, if I logged in with my BMFA number then they would have a link to my house address etc.......

And yes I would happily moderate if that is required (which for a members only forum I doubt)

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

We learnt long ago on here that pro-active moderation is one of the key elements of success when running a forum. It is a sad fact of life that a small minority of people will say things to others on a forum that they would not dream of saying face to face. For a forum to remain a safe, civilised, place it is vital that those few individuals know clearly that such behaviour will not be tolerated. I think the problem with the BMFA forum was that there simply wasn't any meaningful moderation - hence it became the playground the few cyber-bullies.

Regarding BMFA members access to the internet - well I don't know about other clubs - but I maintain the membership list of ours and out of 60 members - only 3 don't have email addresses. The club newsletter and other communications are routinely emailed, posted on either the club website or forum. With just three members receiving communications by mail. I think that is some indication of a pretty high level of internet access - well in our club anyway and I have no reason to believe we are particularly special in that respect.

BEB

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Het up ? No I agree with you Peter, one man or woman one vote, sounds just the ticket

John

[Peter Christy]

Posted by Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 20/08/2014 18:42:08:

We learnt long ago on here that pro-active moderation is one of the key elements of success when running a forum. It is a sad fact of life that a small minority of people will say things to others on a forum that they would not dream of saying face to face.

Exactly right! I argued strongly at the time that, rather than close the forum down, members should have to use their *real* names and BMFA numbers to log in, and that these should be attached to any posts. When people have to use their real identities on-line, rather than hide behind pseudonyms, it concentrates their minds wonderfully!

And no offence to anyone here using pseudonyms - the comment is aimed at those who abuse the system!

Percy: I have no problems with people expressing their views, but many of those that have been expressed here seem to be based on misunderstandings. I'm merely trying to correct those misunderstandings! Believe me, I've had my run-ins with the BMFA - I even stood up at the AGM one year and accused them of being a bunch of old fossils to their faces! However, I think that much of the criticism that has been directed at them in this case is misplaced, to say the least, for reasons I gave earlier.

I don't believe that a NFC is going to happen - there are too many problems attached to it in such a small over-crowded island. However, that doesn't mean that the pros and cons of the argument shouldn't be discussed in a *practical* manner. You never know, one day it might just become a practical reality. But probably not now!

--

Pete

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Lee Smalley]

i honestly dont think the bmfa have asked for opinions on the NFC, to advertise is soley on the BMFA news is akin to advertising it in the flyers you get in free papers and sunday magazines, people just dont read it peter, and say whatever you want but huge amount of people are of the same opinion, and please understand we do not really want to slate people who give their free time to try and help run our association, but honestly the general feeling is that the people up near the top really need to naff off and let some forward thinkers have a go, thats not to say it will all then be fine, but lets have a go and see what happens

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Peter Christy]

Posted by Lee Smalley on 20/08/2014 20:26:42:

i honestly dont think the bmfa have asked for opinions on the NFC, to advertise is soley on the BMFA news is akin to advertising it in the flyers you get in free papers and sunday magazines, people just dont read it peter, and say whatever you want but huge amount of people are of the same opinion, and please understand we do not really want to slate people who give their free time to try and help run our association, but honestly the general feeling is that the people up near the top really need to naff off and let some forward thinkers have a go, thats not to say it will all then be fine, but lets have a go and see what happens

Well, the BMFA News is the official organ of the BMFA, so I don't see where else you are going to advertise a request for comments! If you advertised it here, for example, this is just one forum amongst many, and there would be a lot of "I didn't see it 'coz it wasn't on MY forum" comments! Also, not everyone on here is a BMFA member, and this is an issue for BMFA members. If said members put the BMFA News straight into the kitty litter without even reading it, then that is their own decision, and they must live with the consequences.

And I must refute your comment that it is the "same old, same old" at the top. There have been a LOT of changes at the top of the BMFA this year - let's give them a chance to see what they can do!

Further, its all very well saying the people at the top should stand down and make way for newcomers. I wholeheartedly agree. But who are these newcomers? Did YOU stand for election to any of the posts this year? No? Then why expect others to?

When I had my beef with the BMFA, it was suggested to me that I ought to stand for one or more of the posts available. I did, and spent several years toiling away on Area and Technical committees. It is a thankless task, I can assure you. I hope I left the place in a better state than I found it, but I did my stint and stood down. Now its someone else's turn, but "someone else" seems remarkably reluctant to stand up and be counted.

I hear time and time again "why don't THEY do XY orZ", but no-one ever seems to know who "THEY" are. "THEY" are the members themselves, and the reason for the lack of change at the top is the complete absence of new candidates for the jobs.

If you want it to change, stand for election. You will find (as I did) that you are pushing at an open door!

--

Pete

[Dave Hopkin]

Most web site of the nature of the BMFA would have sent a mass email to members, after all they have our email address's so its really quite simple to do....

That way you would be vastly more visible to all members (and I will bet most seldom if ever visit the BMFA site, there is no change to it week on week!

It would also start to break down the "us and them" barrier that seems to exist between the lowly field flier (should that the trier!) and the "upper echelons"

[Peter Christy]

Fair point, but you'd be surprised how many members aren't on-line. There was a discussion a couple of years back - when I was still involved - about sending the BMFA News out by e-mail to save money on postage. I can't recall the figures off-hand, but I was quite surprised at how many members haven't registered an e-mail address.

[Dave Hopkin]

Not registering an email address and not being on line are two very different things!

Perhaps its time to have a campaign to get everyone's email address registered with their membership?

Then you could implement emailing a LINK to the BMFA news (far better to get the members to click on a link and visit the site to read the news - of you put some eye catching headlines up too they may have a bit of an explore... and cut costs at the same time

Might even encourage more people to contribute too - who knows?

[Lee Smalley]

If only we had magazines with really good circulation that the bmfa could put notifications in that would be seen by loads of modellers .....oh hang on we do !! Quite a few too,
also considering that the classifieds is probably the most visited part of the website where was the big banner advert for the survey on every page!! Stop making excuses there was way way more they could have done to increase participation, but would it have mattered if after the first question was answered in a manner they did not like it was discounted, as this is what seems to have been the case here, did they honestly do this ??

[Lee Smalley]

Great idea sadly they have only just got around to on line subscriptions so maybe another 5 years down the line!!