January 2015 Issue feedback and chat

[Martin Whybrow]

Posted by Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 05/01/2015 22:54:08:

Battery flat as a fluke. With happening to have a couple of 3s Lipos in the boot - I did give it a thought for a moment,...but then I thought "Nah - ring the RAC"!

Why not? There are a number of car starting modules around now that are basically 3S LiPos of around 8Ah capacity.

[Ian Jones]

Posted by Andy48 on 05/01/2015 22:29:18:

At the end of the day, learning to fly and getting my "A" licence was important and so much easier with electric. For instance, nobody can dispute that it is easier to try and repair a damaged electric trainer than an ic trainer soaked in oil. Easier to repair..... sooner back down at the field.

Once I had my licence I was free to go down when I wanted, tinker with whatever I wanted and fly when I wanted.

 

Can't they? Well I do. The presumption about oil soaking is incorrect too.

Edited By Ian Jones on 06/01/2015 01:19:14

[The Wright Stuff]

Posted by Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 05/01/2015 22:54:08:

Slightly off topic - but only slightly - I arrived back at my car after work tonight to find that I'd stupidly left the lights on. Battery flat as a fluke. With happening to have a couple of 3s Lipos in the boot - I did give it a thought for a moment,...but then I thought "Nah - ring the RAC"!

BEB

Funnily enough I did almost the same thing. In my case I didn't use the Lipo's, but I did successfully use the 12 V gel battery that I keep in the car for powering the Lipo charger at the field!!!

[Richard Wood]

I thought the mag was quite balanced. The plug for electric trainers was amusingly countered - coincidentally? -
by Brian Winch's humorous poke at electric fliers & Pete Lowe put in a word for IC too iirc.

[Andy48]

Posted by Ian Jones on 06/01/2015 01:15:41:

Posted by Andy48 on 05/01/2015 22:29:18:

At the end of the day, learning to fly and getting my "A" licence was important and so much easier with electric. For instance, nobody can dispute that it is easier to try and repair a damaged electric trainer than an ic trainer soaked in oil. Easier to repair..... sooner back down at the field.

Once I had my licence I was free to go down when I wanted, tinker with whatever I wanted and fly when I wanted.

Can't they? Well I do. The presumption about oil soaking is incorrect too.

Edited By Ian Jones on 06/01/2015 01:19:14

Note the word EASIER.

[Barnesyboy]

Posted by Lee Smalley on 05/01/2015 21:27:26:

and BB yes you are correct the review is for a flight controller that could be used in other things than a quad...but really ......come on it is still for quads, and will 99% of the time be used as such!

*Multirotor

And thats why the review was based around a multirotor set up, also made the unit more photogenic, in a fixed wing it would be buried in the inner depths.

BB

[John F]

Posted by Ian Jones on 06/01/2015 01:15:41:

Posted by Andy48 on 05/01/2015 22:29:18:

At the end of the day, learning to fly and getting my "A" licence was important and so much easier with electric. For instance, nobody can dispute that it is easier to try and repair a damaged electric trainer than an ic trainer soaked in oil. Easier to repair..... sooner back down at the field.

Once I had my licence I was free to go down when I wanted, tinker with whatever I wanted and fly when I wanted.

Can't they? Well I do. The presumption about oil soaking is incorrect too.

Edited By Ian Jones on 06/01/2015 01:19:14

I whoileheartedly (pun intended) agree with Andy, the lack of gunk streamed down the fus makes repairs much much easier.

I had a similar experience to Andy too, starting off in the early 90's with a Galaxy models trainer and Magnum engine then onto another Galaxy Models aircraft, the Magician, with an Irvine engine then onto a Tucano model, each one I had to repair at some point, trying to get around the fuel soaked wood was a nightmare. Especially if you were inexperienced but learning rapidly on how to repair stuff!

These repairs were alway preceeded by constant starting issues, three experienced folk "umming" and "aaahing" over my, and their own, engines more regularly than was healthy. I remember many times opening the throttle to hear a stangled engine stall before I had gone two feet along the ground.

Then there's the deadsticks which were my personal nightmare. One was whilst using the Tucano for a low slow pass for some photo's for our newsletter, hearing the engine stall on the second pass as I tried to open the throttle and climb out of the low pass meant the instant death of my lovely newly built effort.

Having given up the hobby shortly afterwards, I resurfaced two years ago to find the new fangled batteries an absolute godsend. No starting issues, no stall issues, no cleaning issues, no problems other than how many batteries to carry and wondering if I did apply threadlock to the engine mounting bolts.

Thank God we have a choice now.

[Lee Smalley]

sorry mate mutirotor!!!

it was nice of mr bott for the lecture on electric but i have a few points

1. yes we know and love the benefits of electric most of us fly electric anyway

2. our site is very different out of the dozen or so models there 4 were electric including one of mine, the rest were IC of some form

3. and as i said Andy48 not everyone is able to operate an IC engine some people just are cut out for it, thanks to electric we now have a perfect replacement for those people and others who just want an alternative

4. in years gone past i am amazed how we ever managed to learn to fly if operating an IC engine is as bad as some on here make it sound is it really that difficult or is it just you ??

some on here seem to take great delight in smashing IC over its head with its downsides, just live and let live guys as it can get very tiresome and childish, just embrace the fact there are many different ways we can power our models and most should be equally regarded as viable and practical.

just keep it balanced

[Prop Nut]

It may be easier to repair an electric trainer than one soaked in oil, but if it has been properly built and maintained, and is cleaned after every flying session (a matter of a minute), why would it be oil-soaked? I fly only IC and have never had any problem with oil ingress. But, then, I'm the sort of OCD dinosaur who always cleans garden and DIY tools before I put them away in their designated storage area! Good luck if you prefer electric flight - I just know it will always be IC for me, and I'm glad to have learned when it was the only option. Running-in and setting up a new engine is an essential part of the hobby for me, and I've never been unable to fly because of engine problems.

[Lee Smalley]

Posted by David Ashby - RCME on 05/01/2015 22:07:14:

I'm never surprised Lee, least of all by your 'thoughts'

at least i will always be honest with you and i would never say anything about you i would not say to your face, in this day and age that can be a rarity !!

[The Wright Stuff]

Well, as usual, I think there are all sorts of angles and opinions to this argument, much to do with personal preference about what individuals want from the hobby. The best option is whatever brings the most happiness to the model flier!

However, purely from a beginner's point of view, I think John F's summary above is bang on: having learnt on IC myself, that all sounds very familiar. There are many RTF electric models out there. How many RTF glow fuel models are there available again?

In balance, there is clearly potential for more satisfaction longer term by mastering the IC engine: again, speaking from experience the noise, smell and authenticity of a noisy thing up front - the experience of flying an electric doesn't come close. If a beginner is dead sure that they want to progress into IC later in their flying then there is a perfectly good argument there for starting out with IC. But how many beginners have that clear an intention?

The only other argument I can think of against electric is that somehow it might be too easy! That is, because no effort was required to get it in the air, they breed a casual approach: instant gratification. It doesn't matter if I crash it because I didn't spend months installing and running in the engine! I'm speculating here, but there does seem to be a conflict between making it easy to get started, and making it so easy that there is no commitment, understanding or knowledge.

Edited By The Wright Stuff on 06/01/2015 13:00:13

[Lee Smalley]

well said prop nut and TWS

the only downside i can think of for electric is when the newbie turns up with 1 or 2 packs, but that's just the same as a guy turning up with no fuel (yes it has happened)

and as the volts of the pack drop the throttle needs to be crept up the throttle range to compensate, but again that really is a nothing issue, and actually helps them learn throttle control, so prob not a downside at all

[John F]

I disagree with that point TWS, there is a lot of satisfaction and I don't see any instant gratification, just an absence of harrassment, fuel tanks, extra servos, glow plugs, glow batteries, starters or finger guards.

I don't in any way think "Ah well it's just electric" in any casual way at all if I crash; it is still many weeks of work and effort to get it into the air.

I also disagree completely with your lack of effort perception; the effort it still there getting it into the air, with the building from the board, routing of controls etc, covering, testing etc, I just want to fly rather than mess around thereafter with the engine. If I crash I would still be gutted, you can't state I won't be simply because it is not an IC engine up front.  That's quite dismissive of those who choose a different option to what you like.

Whilst there is a market for IC and the sounds and smells associated with it etc, if that is what you are after, then all is good but we do have a choice of propulsion.

Your speculation at the end is also quite wrong, I understand IC, I understand it quite well; I don't want it.

Edited By John F on 06/01/2015 13:26:03

[trebor]

As a novice just starting out and a keen lover of old motorcycles IC was the way to go but not having a glow motor before I was shocked at the slimy gue the fuel left behind. Maybe my next motor might be a petrol job for cheaper running costs and less slime hopefully but the smell would be a problem in the house. What with the slime and the quiet fly days my local club has I,m now looking at electric as well. Not being electrically minded I find this hard, thankfully most of the kits have recommended setups or I would be lost.

[The Wright Stuff]

John F, I suggest you read my post more carefully before writing such an aggressive response. Of course I don't expect those points to apply to everyone. I am an electric flier myself 75% of the time!

The whole point of a structured debate is that you list the points in favour of one argument, then you list the points of the counter argument, in order to maintain a balance.

I am not saying that ALL electric fliers are requiring instant gratification. I am saying that 'one' could construct an argument to say that this 'might' be a contributing factor in 'some' of the cases.

I didn't imply in any way that you should want IC. I was simply saying that some others might, and that they shouldn't be dissuaded at the beginning of their training simply because their instructor/club/helper disliked IC.

[Lee Smalley]

TWS is again bang on, and trebor if you have so much slime then you are either using a fuel with too much oil, too rich or not using a fully sythetic oil, of course you will never get rig of all of the gunk, but you can get it to a point where you can do a full days flying and have to clean only after 7 or so flights and electric is not that hard to fathom if you ask on here and do a bit of research is does get much easier when you understand the acronyms etc, stick with it and its a great power source.

ps my typhoon was ripping on sunday with its nearly 1Kw of power !!

[John F]

It certainly was not written with an aggressive mind TWS, I was simply replying to your points. I cannot see how my reply is not part of a structured debate either as I answered your suppositions, but I would defend my comments; it did appear as if you were being dismissive over the choices people make.

According to your post you stated ; "no effort was required to get it in the air, they breed a casual approach: instant gratification." That is an absolute statement, no mention of may, might, maybe nor some.

Irrespective, wishing to put a line under it and move on, I apologise if you thought I was being aggressive, I was not, nor was it my intention to be, but you gave an impression that maybe you did not intend at the start of your post.

The plus side, as you say, with electrickery is that it is easier. It is also convenient and I, personally, find all the paraphanalia required for IC to be too much for me to lug around a field. Having said that, as long as you have enough batteries for the Rx and Tx you can fly all day as long as you have enough fuel. Same could be said it you have enough batteries, however.

As I said earlier it is down to what you prefer to do and many use both methods.

[The Wright Stuff]

Thanks John, I'll concede that I could have formatted my post differently with italics or quotes...

...but it does seem we're both in pro-choice agreement!

[Lee Smalley]

both of you lads are bang on, i love taking dog for a walk with a pocket full of lipos for my shockie down the field.

but also my most of my glow engines dont need a starter, a lock on glow clip and a fuel pump is all i need, properly primed all you need is a flip backwards and 90% of the time they run first time, is electric any easier for a beginner, well maybe it is, only if they get the original setup right, then it is just a case of plug in and go.

i think the setup for an IC is if anything easier 40 sized glow engine 10x6 prop fuel and plug, the difficulty for some comes in setting them up, and some find this easier then others and it does depend on who is teaching, what electric ready to fly models do is take that decision away from people who don't have a clue what they want, it provides a switch on and go ability that some can find less than challenging, but it also provides a path for those potential pilots out there that may have given up trying to start an IC engine, and thats a great thing.

but to state electric is really the only way is just short sighted, go to other clubs and ask the same question i bet you will get different answers depending on how they do things, and i think it is also completely ignoring those of us out there that really want to learn on an IC equipped model, because yes there are those of us out there like that.

i think model flyers out there that are only electric and have only been electric struggle to understand that and get very dismissive about IC, even aggressive in their hatred of it, personally i find that rather sad, below is my hotliner that i was ripping about on sunday, no IC engine is ever gonna fit in there!!

[Andy48]

Posted by Lee Smalley on 06/01/2015 13:19:26:

well said prop nut and TWS

the only downside i can think of for electric is when the newbie turns up with 1 or 2 packs, but that's just the same as a guy turning up with no fuel (yes it has happened)

and as the volts of the pack drop the throttle needs to be crept up the throttle range to compensate, but again that really is a nothing issue, and actually helps them learn throttle control, so prob not a downside at all

As it happens I've been playing with my Taranis and looking at the telemetry. It is brilliant for electric models, and this screen shot shows the current consumption for a Funfly model running at just over half throttle producing 1.3kg static thrust (on a 2kg all up model). As can be seen, with the throttle unchanged from about 100 sec on, the graph shows a straight line up to 320 seconds. This shows that actually there is no need at all to compensate for slowly falling battery voltage. Indeed the telemetry shows it drops only very slightly until the battery is more than 80% discharged, then it falls off very rapidly. After 5 minutes it has used 1400mah, about 40% of the capacity of the battery.

[Lee Smalley]

andy nice graph but i can only comment on my experience the beginner was complaining that the throttle he had left it on was now no longer enough to sustain flight, my own experience is also this my typhoon goes like the clappers initially and then slowly gets worse until the big drop off, personally for the beginner i dont think its an issue and indeed good for him to not get used to just leaving the throttle in one place and manage his throttle through the entire flight, good practice in my opinion

[Andy48]

One downside of electric is the lack of noise and hence feedback, so it is all to easy to have the throttle open more than necessary. Reading through the comments here, the poor battery life for a trainer has been mentioned before. I would suspect that an instructor is busy watching the model rather than seeing how far open the throttle is. As the graph shows, flying at about half throttle will provide more than enough thrust ensuring that the control surfaces work effectively. Opening the throttle more does not give a uniform increase of power but dramatically increases the current flowing through the motor.

[PatMc]

Andy, there's no audible feedback from ic if another ic engine is running, either on the ground or in the air.
If the throttle of an EP model is opened the increase in power & current are increased by the same proportion.

BTW isn't it about time to return this thread to the topic of the Jan issue RCM&E ?

Edited By PatMc on 06/01/2015 18:55:31

[trebor]

Posted by Lee Smalley on 06/01/2015 14:36:24:

TWS is again bang on, and trebor if you have so much slime then you are either using a fuel with too much oil, too rich or not using a fully sythetic oil, of course you will never get rig of all of the gunk, but you can get it to a point where you can do a full days flying and have to clean only after 7 or so flights and electric is not that hard to fathom if you ask on here and do a bit of research is does get much easier when you understand the acronyms etc, stick with it and its a great power source.

ps my typhoon was ripping on sunday with its nearly 1Kw of power !!

I should have said the motor is still running in so its a bit rich. Looking forward to making it leaner though !

[Andy48]

Posted by PatMc on 06/01/2015 18:53:47:

Andy, there's no audible feedback from ic if another ic engine is running, either on the ground or in the air.
If the throttle of an EP model is opened the increase in power & current are increased by the same proportion.

BTW isn't it about time to return this thread to the topic of the Jan issue RCM&E ?

Edited By PatMc on 06/01/2015 18:55:31

Not necessarily. Static tests show that the thrust produced is far from linear due to various effects. For instance motor efficiency is not constant throughout.

Is this really off topic? I though part of this discussion was about Graham's article.