Goodbye Winkle. R.I.P.

[Gordon Nicol]

Posted by john davies 8 on 22/02/2016 09:16:39:

 

I saw it on BBC news and it was on BBC Scotland twice yesterday!

 

Edited By Gordon Nicol on 22/02/2016 09:37:39

[John F]

Posted by Colin Leighfield on 22/02/2016 08:44:50:

John F. Read carefully his description of what happened to the carrier programme and his career following that. He was retired in 1970, not by his choice.

I don't remember reading anything in such a light that represents a knife being turned. I read it as him wanting more. I must admit, with 5 days left in uniform before I leave the RAF I know the feeling!!

I'll have to dig the book out and give it another read.

 

Edited By John F on 22/02/2016 10:04:42

[David Holland 2]

Radio 4 (Today) carried a quite in-depth piece on Eric Brown at about 8.30 this morning. Very well worth a listen and should be available on the iplayer. He was on my list of those inspirational people that I would love to have round for dinner and then chat the night away with a good single malt. Like many others, I shall be re-reading " Wings on my sleeve" and remembering a great man.

David

[Colin Leighfield]

John F. As you know the re-written version from 2006 is a lot more revealing and up-to-date than the original, which I think was written in the fifties? He describes the 1965 cancellation of CVA 01 on page 270 and the uproar surrounding that. On page 275 he describes how in 1979 the government was "hell-bent on inflicting irreparable damage on naval aviation" and says how. On page 276 he says that the Navy were seeking to have him appointed as Naval Attaché, Washington, in the rank of Rear Admiral. A month later he was told that the Minister had personally vetoed his appointment because he felt it would send the wrong signal to the US Navy at a time when our government was cutting back naval aviation. That shows how highly he was regarded and that was the reason he was politically unacceptable. A paymaster captain was given the job, which would certainly have told the US how unimportant our then-government intended naval aviation to be.

The reason I mentioned this was because we worship Eric Brown as an amazing pilot and a true hero. He was more than that. He was a very clever person, a natural leader and able to deal on equal terms with anybody. So much more could have been achieved but throughout his career he was affected by short-term political decisions which with hindsight were wrong and did long term damage. He shines through all of this, his integrity and sense of duty remained untarnished, unlike the reputations of many of the short-sighted people whose decisions affected him. History always judges.

[Cuban8]

Should have been the first through Mach 1 but thwarted by political schenanigans if you read up on the Miles M52 debacle. I just hope that Chuck Yeager had the opportunity to buy Eric a beer at some stage!

Edited By Cuban8 on 22/02/2016 10:22:51

[J D 8]

One of the saddest sights I ever saw was HMS Ark Royal [ R09] being towed away to the scrap yard. It was a beautiful clear day out here on the west coast and it took all day for her to pass up St Georges channel / Irish Sea. In the evening the tugs were not visible over the horizon but you could still see the great flat top.

[Geoff S]

Posted by Terry Walters on 22/02/2016 07:56:03:

I had my say about Eric last night on the forum so this morning I listened to BBC radio news at 7.00am (your time) for the obituary reminding the public why he was an important historic figure - nothing!! How sad is that?

There was a long piece about him on the 'Today' programme this morning between 7.30 and 8.00 (I think, I listen in bed between 7.30 and 9.00 - well, I'm retired ) so the BBC didn't ignore his death at all. In fact one contributor revealed Winkle Brown had once ridden the Wall of Death, both solo and with a sidecar accompanied by a lion! It was a fitting tribute that seemed to stress what a decent and modest man he was.

In all honesty, it's hard to regret too much the death at 97 of someone who led such a wonderful and fulfilling life. None of us gets out alive and Winkle was lucky to last as long as he did considering the narrow squeaks he had which could have meant he died much younger.

Oddly enough he cropped up in conversation with my youngest brother and a friend of his fromRAF days only last weekend. The both regretted he was associated with the RN rather than the RAF

Geoff

[Alan H]

I had the privilege of attending his lectures on two occasions and meeting and talking with the great man afterwards. I'm so glad I took the opportunity to attend the talks when the opportunity was there.

[John F]

Posted by Colin Leighfield on 22/02/2016 10:13:55:

John F. As you know the re-written version from 2006 is a lot more revealing and up-to-date than the original, which I think was written in the fifties? He describes the 1965 cancellation of CVA 01 on page 270 and the uproar surrounding that. On page 275 he describes how in 1979 the government was "hell-bent on inflicting irreparable damage on naval aviation" and says how. On page 276 he says that the Navy were seeking to have him appointed as Naval Attaché, Washington, in the rank of Rear Admiral. A month later he was told that the Minister had personally vetoed his appointment because he felt it would send the wrong signal to the US Navy at a time when our government was cutting back naval aviation. That shows how highly he was regarded and that was the reason he was politically unacceptable. A paymaster captain was given the job, which would certainly have told the US how unimportant our then-government intended naval aviation to be.

Ah, I see. I read it a different way. He's a pilot who wanted a flag officer post to further promote naval aviation at a time when it was not needed and another person was better suited. Not really a stab in the back or anything, but it is down to how the individual takes it. People either see it personally or objectively.

He went on to help found the Air Ambulance system as well as Police heli services so it can't be all bad.

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

BBC television did do a report last night - which was well researched I thought. They had obvioulsy "had it in the bottom drawer" ready to use and such obvious pre-planning, with lots of photos, videos of Eric in later life and film of Belsen etc. explaining the role he played there, shows I think that they did regard his passing as a significant event which should be properly recorded. It lasted about 5 mins, which doesn't sound long but is actually quite a slot on the main late evening news.

BEB

Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 22/02/2016 11:20:36

[Josip Vrandecic -Mes]

A giant of modern aviation is gone......R.I.P. Sir.....

[Devcon1]

Reading one of his obituarys made me smile.

When collecting an award from King George VI, the king was heard to say " oh no, not you again ".

[ChrisB]

BBC2 Tonight at 7pm

A programme on the great man!

[Peter Jenkins]

I turned to BBC 2 to watch what I thought was an up-to-date review of Winkle Brown. Sadly, it was a repeat of an earlier programme. However, there is a DVD with Winkle talking through his career with lots of good video (quite a bit of which was on the BBC2 programme tonight). You can get the DVD here.

He's also co-written a book on the Miles M52. This contract was let in 1942 and required a top speed of 1,000 mph! Winkle ended up joining the programme in 1945 because he was the smallest test pilot there was and the pilot needed to fit into a very restricted cockpit - the bullet of the intake! The project was finally cancelled in 1946 despite requiring only additional modest funds prior to its flight. The M52 was powered by one of Whittle's engines which was equipped with afterburning - the first such system. The team was ordered to hand over all the technical information to the US. Winkle's belief is that the M52 looked likely to succeed but he now believes that the main reason for cancellation was skulduggery at the highest level where Whittle was seriously unpopular. I think a further reason might have something to do with the debt we owed the USA after all the Lend/Lease programme. The fledgling USAF was looking to beat the US Navy to Mach 1 and eliminating the leading challenger from the race must have been a great coup. They also got all the information about the flying tail which Miles had test flown on a piston engine test bed as the Miles designers had identified the problem with elevator control caused by a shock wave forming on the elevator hinge line and rendering the elevator ineffective at high subsonic Mach numbers.

The M52 was a turbo jet powered aircraft designed to take off and land on a conventional undercarriage. The Bell X1 was a rocket powered experimental aircraft that required an air drop to be launched. Just think where the UK would have been with a design that could be turned into a supersonic fighter (as the Lightning was) in 1946/47! We would probably still be in the fighter business today had that happened and Winkle, not Chuck Yeager, would have been first through the sound barrier.