Latest CAA Update

[MattyB]

Posted by i12fly on 08/10/2019 13:11:12:

I think most of our models come under the A3 category, which CAP 1789 states:

-No flight within 150m horizontally of residential, commercial, industrial or recreational areas

-No uninvolved people present within the area of flight.

When you consider the area our models cover during a normal in visual line of sight flight, will this kill off many of our current flying sites from 1st July next year. Or am I missing something?

The sections on where you can fly have always been most worrying to me - as it stands I cannot see how flying from public sites (which is the vast majority of silent flight locations for instance) is possible, as the pilot cannot guarantee uninvolved people will not arrive within the area of flight at some point. It would probably come down to a precedent case determining what "the area of flight" is legally (i.e. at a slope site is it solely the airspace out in front, or does it include the landing area too? Is it sufficient for the pilot to visually check the landing area is free of people before starting their approach? What happens if somebody appears after they have committed?). It's a bit of a minefield, and as you say very few existing flying sites will pass these two criteria today.

Edited By MattyB on 08/10/2019 13:35:19

[Former Member]

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[GONZO]

On the point regarding A3 airspace/site distances etc. I generated a Google Earth image to show airspace limits for the Delyn MFC, which in my opinion has a generous flying site. Those on here who know the site I think would agree. It showed that a large part of the site to the West and North were very restricted and basically the area to the South round to the East were the only areas available. Although, using the South would mean flying behind the pits and flight line. I'd post it here but am unable to even save it to my account on here

Edited By GONZO on 08/10/2019 14:39:25

[GONZO]

A3 Airspace at Club Field This is the only way I've found to show this, by providing a link to FB. I think a lot of clubs are going to struggle with this.

(Something strange with my account as I can't even upload and save previous photo's etc)

Edited By GONZO on 08/10/2019 15:28:30

[Martin_K]

Can someone confirm I am correctly understanding CAP 1789, operation type A2 and A3?

I cannot find a document CAP 1789, only CAP 1789 - The EU UAS Regulation Package – Outline, which I assume is an explanation of CAP 1789, not the document itself?

Extracts below taken from pages 4 and 5 of the document linked above.

The closest to what I currently do seems to be Open Category - Sub Category A2. My concerns are the three parts in bold. What do they mean to somebody who builds their own models?

A2 (Fly ‘close to’ people) – Operations in subcategory A2 can only be conducted with an unmanned aircraft that is compliant with a specific product standard (and a maximum mass of less than 4kg), but this unmanned aircraft can be flown to a minimum safehorizontal distance of 30 metres from uninvolved people, or down to 5 metres horizontally when its ‘low speed mode’ is selected. In addition, the remote pilot must have successfully completed an additional competency examination in order to operate in this subcategory.

Sub Category A3 looks to me to rule out any operation of models over 4Kg on public land, which is every flying field available to me.

A3(Fly ‘far from’ people) – This category covers the more general types of unmanned aircraft operations. The intent is that the unmanned aircraft will only be flown in areas that are clear of uninvolved persons and will not be flown in areas that are used for residential, commercial, industrial or recreational purposes (roughly equivalent to what is currently referred to as a ‘congested area'

Edited to explain - I had to slightly change the text copied from the CAP because the forum software is substituting an emoticon where a combination of punctuation marks appear!

Edited By Martin_K on 08/10/2019 15:34:45

Edited By Martin_K on 08/10/2019 15:37:03

Edited By Martin_K on 08/10/2019 15:37:59

Edited By Martin_K on 08/10/2019 15:40:36

[Former Member]

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[GONZO]

If you build it yourself then to get it compliant with a specific product standard would require you to submit it and all design/production information to a test house for CE certification, least ways that's my interpretation. The important aspect that pushes all models into A3 is the requirement for lower ratings to have 'electronic conspicuity' (along with some other features). Look at my FB link to see how all this affects the DELYN MFC, and as I've said above I think this is a big site.

Welcome to the 'spiders web' that is DRES! It's not just the registration and testing. This other aspect is, I would suggest, even more important. With slight tweaks of the airspace/site requirements they can put everyone out of business by making it impossible to find a compliant site from which to fly.

Edited By GONZO on 08/10/2019 15:54:24

[MattyB]

Posted by Steve J on 08/10/2019 13:51:45:

Posted by i12fly on 08/10/2019 13:11:12:

No uninvolved people present within the area of flight.

The EU regulation uses the word 'endangered', the CAA have chosen to interpret this as 'present' in CAP 1789. The EU's use of 'endangered' in the final wording is deliberate as it was 'present' in the October '18 draft and they changed it. This gold plating of A3 concerns me much more than a trivial online test, but the BMFA seem to be quiet on the issue.

Agreed - that guidance document does not make pleasant reading on these points, particularly the section on operating under A3 on pages 23 and 24...

"UAS.OPEN.040 - UAS operations in subcategory A3.

This rule sets out the requirements for flight in the A3 subcategory, which is essentially where it is believed that most aspects of ‘casual drone use’ will fall; the main aspects being that, in addition to keeping the unmanned aircraft within your line of sight and below 120m/400ft, flights are conducted away from congested areas and in an area where there are no uninvolved people that can be endangered. Specific points to note are:

• The area for the flight must be selected on the basis that the remote pilot can make a reasonable expectation that there will be no uninvolved people present (and hence could potentially be endangered) within the area where the unmanned aircraft is flying
• The intent of this requirement is that the area within which the flight is being conducted should be clear of uninvolved people while the aircraft is flying. The ‘reasonable expectation’ placed on the remote pilot allows for cases when people unexpectedly move into an area that was previously clear, at which point the remote pilot must take appropriate steps to manoeuvre the aircraft away from these people, or land if this is not possible.
• Note that no specific horizontal separation distance values have been set in the regulation for A3; however, it is clear that any distances employed must be greater than those set out for the A2 subcategory (which specifically caters for flight ‘close’ to people). Until any further guidance is received from EASA, the CAA’s general guidance is that a horizontal distance (i.e. no overflight) of at least 50m must be maintained from all uninvolved persons."

Ugly stuff, especially if you operate from a site with public access...

Edited By MattyB on 08/10/2019 15:55:47

[MattyB]

Posted by GONZO on 08/10/2019 15:24:03:

A3 Airspace at Club Field This is the only way I've found to show this, by providing a link to FB. I think a lot of clubs are going to struggle with this.

(Something strange with my account as I can't even upload and save previous photo's etc)

Here you go Gonzo - I pulled it from FB and cut and shut in your description text...

"Airspace/site restrictions. Yellow circle is 120mtr(400ft) radius centred on mid point of run way. Blue circle is 300mtr(1000ft) radius centered on mid point of run way. Red circles are 150mtr(500ft) radius centered on nearest point to runway and indicate 'no entry' area. Magenta line is a rough connection of the red circles to show the airspace boundary."

I very much agree that the huge majority of clubs are going to struggle to comply with these new minimum distance requirements.

Edited By MattyB on 08/10/2019 16:13:24

[Martin_K]

Posted by Steve J on 08/10/2019 15:46:08:

The document that you link to outlines the EU Implementing and Delegated Regulations. There are links to these regulations on page one of the document.

What you do at the moment is probably A3 privately built.

Steve

Thanks, I see the links now.

[Martin_K]

Posted by MattyB on 08/10/2019 16:02:39:

Here you go Gonzo - I pulled it from FB and cut and shut in your description text...

Thanks Matty and Gonzo. (I have no FaceBook account so cannot see things on FaceBook as they cover a third of the screen with an invitation to join).

It will take me some time to digest the implications.

[MattyB]

So I just asked a question to the BMFA FB page for their view on this topic and got an almost immediate response from Dave Phipps (thank you sir):

"A3 is within the 'Open Category' so would apply to those operating outside the framework of Associations. The only thing mandated in the EU regs for those within an Association is the requirement for registration. Absolutely everything else should be defined in the authorisation negotiated with the CAA for which CAP658 will be our starting point."

From that I take it that all National Association members will be operating under the Specific category, with the authorisation for that having been negotiated by the BMFA, LMA, FPVUK and SAA with the CAA. If that authorisation includes exemptions to the distance requirements and "reasonable expectations that no uninvolved personnel will be present" then we should be good, though that will make it comparatively confusing for the authorities who are looking to enforce the regs.

[Former Member]

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[GONZO]

My Steve that's quite cheap. Try paying legal fees when you take legal action against a house builder(don't ask, no really don't ask me how I know).

[Phil Green]

Posted by UAS.OPEN.040 - UAS operations in subcategory A3:

• The ‘reasonable expectation’ placed on the remote pilot allows for cases when people unexpectedly move into an area that was previously clear, at which point the remote pilot must take appropriate steps to manoeuvre the aircraft away from these people, or land if this is not possible.

You're slope soaring alone on an isolated hilltop, when theres a voice over your shoulder... "how much does that cost mate?" you cant manoeuvre away from the slope and its much safer to stay up until he leaves 2 minutes later, than to be pressured into an unplanned landing...

 

Edited By Phil Green on 08/10/2019 19:01:03

[Peter Christy]

Posted by Steve J on 08/10/2019 12:19:16:

Posted by Peter Christy on 08/10/2019 12:10:17:

Have they changed it, then? The last time I looked it was still saying 18?

You need to learn the difference between the operator and the remote pilot. See CAP1789 pages 9 & 10.

Steve

PS The remote pilot age limit is from 1st July next year, there isn't one until then.

Edited By Steve J on 08/10/2019 12:23:32

Hm! But I thought that the unlamented Baroness Vere was saying that for model flying purposes, the two were the same. At least, that's the way I interpreted her statements about it being "inappropriate" for Associations to register as the operator. Are the DfT now reconsidering this? I sincerely hope so! Nothing brings the law into disrepute quicker than palpably nonsensical regulations!

--

Pete

[MattyB]

Posted by Phil Green on 08/10/2019 18:59:30:

Posted by UAS.OPEN.040 - UAS operations in subcategory A3:

• The ‘reasonable expectation’ placed on the remote pilot allows for cases when people unexpectedly move into an area that was previously clear, at which point the remote pilot must take appropriate steps to manoeuvre the aircraft away from these people, or land if this is not possible.

You're slope soaring alone on an isolated hilltop, when theres a voice over your shoulder... "how much does that cost mate?" you cant manoeuvre away from the slope and its much safer to stay up until he leaves 2 minutes later, than to be pressured into an unplanned landing...

Stop applying common sense, that’s craziness... In all seriousness in that situation there is no problem - you’ve not done anything in transgression of the regs and there is no-one to enforce them if you had, so just carry on and pick the safest option. The time to worry is when the voice behind you says “Can I see your Operator registration documents for that, sir...”

 

Edited By MattyB on 08/10/2019 19:57:32

[Martin_K]

Posted by MattyB on 08/10/2019 17:09:25:

So I just asked a question to the BMFA FB page for their view on this topic and got an almost immediate response from Dave Phipps (thank you sir):

"A3 is within the 'Open Category' so would apply to those operating outside the framework of Associations. The only thing mandated in the EU regs for those within an Association is the requirement for registration. Absolutely everything else should be defined in the authorisation negotiated with the CAA for which CAP658 will be our starting point."

From that I take it that all National Association members will be operating under the Specific category, with the authorisation for that having been negotiated by the BMFA, LMA, FPVUK and SAA with the CAA. If that authorisation includes exemptions to the distance requirements and "reasonable expectations that no uninvolved personnel will be present" then we should be good, though that will make it comparatively confusing for the authorities who are looking to enforce the regs.

Matty, I am not confident about your interpretation of Dave's statement.

From the Implementing Regulation;

(8) Operations in the ‘open’ category, which should cover operations that present the lowest risks, should not require UAS that are subject to standard aeronautical compliance procedures, but should be conducted using the UAS classes that are defined in Commission Delegated Regulation (EU) 2019/945 (2).

(9) Operations in the ‘specific’ category should cover other types of operations presenting a higher risk and for which a thorough risk assessment should be conducted to indicate which requirements are necessary to keep the operation safe.

It looks to me as though the specific category would impose extra burdens on the aero modeller.

[John Bisset]

To which the only sensible response is 'Not now - don't distract me while I deal safely with this'. No doubt that would not be what such an inquirer would want !

[Former Member]

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[Former Member]

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[Martin_K]

Posted by Steve J on 08/10/2019 20:16:28:

Posted by Martin_K on 08/10/2019 20:10:43:

It looks to me as though the specific category would impose extra burdens on the aero modeller.

You need to read article 16 of the implementing regulation.

Steve

I have just read article 16 UAS operations in the framework of model aircraft clubs and associations. It makes no reference to the specific category. Dave Phipps does not make reference to the specific category, Matty does. I still think that looks wrong.

[Former Member]

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[David P Williams]

Aaaaaaarrrrrrrgggggghhhhh brain hurts now trying to follow all this. Just want to fly my toy planes!

[Peter Christy]

Posted by Steve J on 08/10/2019 21:47:52:

Posted by Martin_K on 08/10/2019 21:33:13:

Dave Phipps does not make reference to the specific category, Matty does.

If you go back to Opinion 01-2018, the draft article that became article 16 explicitly referred to the specific category, for some reason it no longer does, but article 3 makes it clear.

"(b) UAS operations in the ‘specific’ category shall require an operational authorisation issued by the competent authority pursuant to Article 12 or an authorisation received in accordance with Article 16, or, under circumstances defined in Article 5(5), a declaration to be made by a UAS operator;"

Steve

Edited By Steve J on 08/10/2019 22:07:14

And presumably only when there's an "R" in the name of the month!

Who writes this guff? Where's the Campaign for Plain English when you need them?

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Pete