Tiger Moth by Value Planes

[Geoff Daunt]

I have asked before if anyone has built this kit, but no one responded. Cannot believe l am the only modeller in the UK to build this.It certainly is a serious piece of kit and the hardest model l have built in 30 yrs and my first biplane.

So l am trying again: building almost complete but can’t work out how the Upper wings attach to the dummy Fuel tank which sits on stainless steel tubing above cockpit. Nothing in the instructions.

Also zero instructions on the quite complicated rigging which is clearly structural.

if anyone has built this and can assist l would be very grateful.

l also guess l am going to have to make a jig so l can get the wings in the correct position before attaching to fuselage sides: again nothing in the instructions:

both wings sit at + 2.5 incidence to Datum line; bottom wing sits at 4.5 degrees dihedral and upper wing at 1 degree dihedral.

Any general advice on setting up biplane wings greatly appreciated. Thanks 

[Manish Chandrayan]

Geoff, can you post few pictures of the top wing/fuel tank area from the plan/pictorial instructions? 

From what I have seen on Value Planes website and other builds on FB the top wing should bolt to the centre cabane cross members. 

As for incidence, if the fuse is built correct the wings when bolted should attain correct incidence. Don't fret over a quarter or half degree as long as both top and bottom are same. 

For setting the dihedral you first need to attach the lower wings. Prop them up to correct dihedral and sweep back making sure symmetry on both sides. . Now install the top wings and attach the landing wires. Rig the landing wires so that the dihedral is correct on lower wings. Now fix and fasten the interplane struts so that the upper wings have the required dihedral. Fix the flying wires and tension them correctly. Remove all wing props and measure again to ensure that the dihedral and sweep back on both top and bottom wings  are orrect. Install incidence wires, tension them correctly. Some amount of incidence can be adjusted with these. 

 

The VP model Tiger Moth is closely copied from Paolo Severin kit (Paolo has openly said this on FB). Therefore you can also glean some tips studying the excellent pictures and manual of Paolo's Tiger (available on Toni Clarke's website) 

 

And lastly VP is on FB. Maybe message him if you are still stuck. 

 

[Manish Chandrayan]

Geoff, here are a few pictures from VP FB page. You will see that the wings have metal brackets at the roots. The kit has spring loaded catches (diagram shown in the last  picture) that retain the top and bottom wings on front while the rear fittings are bolted to the corresponding fittings on the fuse. Hope this helps you in some manner

[Geoff Daunt]

Many thanks for reply.

planes look almost identical 

l understand how the bottom wing attaches with brackets 

However as you will see the plan shows no brackets upon which to hang the upper wings and there are no brackets left from the metal sheet parts.

on the picture you posted of part of wing in yellow l have nothing in plans or instructions showing a vertical metal spring system.

all my wings have a horizontal spring system but l have nothing to fix into on the top !!!

[Manish Chandrayan]

The second picture you posted, is that a lower wing or upper? 

The cross tubes on the cabane have open ends. I believe there should be solid/tubular piece that goes in, and will be secured with a bolt/nut along with the upper attachment for cabane wires. The outer exposed ends of the end pieces should have provision to take the spring loaded pin at front and bolted through at the rear

[Manish Chandrayan]

The first picture shows the cabane in profile, is there a plan view of the cabane area or the lower and upper wings especially the wing roots. That should give some clues on fixing arrangements 

[RottenRow]

I don't know if this website is of any use to you, it's in German but does have a lot of photos of the build of one of these.

 

“https://www.rc-network.de/threads/de-havilland-dh-82a-tiger-moth-m-1-3-8-laser-cut-bausatz-valueplanes-baubericht.780695/page-10”

 

(Remove the "" marks I had to add, I couldn't paste the link above without them for some reason).

 

Around pages 6 to 8 you can see that the cross tubes on the cabane that Manish mentions has metal fittings installed, which have cross-drilled holes for the pin and bolts.

 

Brian.

[Manish Chandrayan]

Link to the website pointed by Brian. 

 

[Manish Chandrayan]

Geoff

If you have missing parts, I suggest you write to Value Planes. If they value their customers they should be able to supply the missing parts and also guide you further on the construction   

Edited January 10 by Manish Chandrayan

[Graham R]

Geoff, looks a nice build. I build their 98" Sinbad. The instructions weren't much better. Model does fly well though.

[Manish Chandrayan]

The end pieces in question are clearly seen in the attached picture . Picture taken from the thread referred by Brian

 

[Geoff Daunt]

Thanks everyone for further information.

Having looked briefly at the German build website l think l have solved the problem.

l have just double checked that l have used the correct stainless steel tubes in length to build the cabane structure and l have.

The problem seems to be the top Horizontal tubes that go through the cabane.

l have also checked the width and it coincides with the plan. In any event it is jig built.

So the problem seems to be that the top tubes are too short.

you can see in the photos that l have inserted the bolt and nuts on the inside, to keep it in place.

If however they were longer, then the holes would be on the outside of the Cabane and the metal fittings on the wing would indeed fit into the pre drilled holes in the tubes.

No wonder l was struggling to see how the top wing fitted.!!

[Geoff Daunt]

Further to my above post, it has just crossed with the last post from Manish.

So it is not the tubes are short but the fittings that go in the end of the tubes, l missed out. !!!!!

I assumed they were to do with the rigging, but yet again nothing in the instructions about rigging.

You are a star Manish.👍👍

[Manish Chandrayan]

Happy to have been of any help. Now push the pedal and get the model completed and flying by Summer. 👍

[Robert Welford]

 

I am quite interested in building a Value Planes Tiger Moth as I have an OS GF40 petrol doing nothing. I read somewhere that the wing sweep on the top wing was insufficient to be scale. Is this the case?

[Geoff Daunt]

Hi Robert, I am using a spare Dessert Aircraft 50cc as the power plant. A tight fit but l thought the extra power might come in Handy. It certainly is a large and heavy model. I read somewhere that the builder was concerned about the weight and chose to change a lot of the wood to balsa and did not use the stainless tubing for wing tips and elevators: Trying to bend the stainless tubing was a nightmare and l ditched it. I made mine laminating ply and balsa, the old fashioned way and worked well.

I like to build Scale type models but l am not an expert and can’t really answer your question whether it is absolutely true scale.  That is beyond my expertise,

l have several books on the Tiger moth and it certainly looks very realistic. Good luck and do let me know if you get one. 👍

[Robert Welford]

Thanks Geoff - very useful.

[Geoff Daunt]

Hi Robert, I am assuming you are an experienced Builder, otherwise don’t touch it.

I have been building for 40+ yrs, but never a biplane, and without doubt the most challenging build yet.

The plans are very good but the usual Chinese/ English instruction book which is so very basic for such a difficult model, and on some of the tricky bits absolutely nothing.

Such a shame since the quality of the materials is excellent and the laser cutting some of the best l have seen for a long time both on ply and the metal sheet parts.

Just thought l should add the above since, as you will know, not a cheap kit.

l dread to think of the cost of the covering, when l get around to it.🤣🤣

 

 

 

[Ady Hayward]

Hi Folks. I have been "Off Grid" for a while building one of these for scale competition and started it in late 2022. I did the basic construction and at the rigging stage found that there was no wing sweep. A re check of dimensions found it to me more akin to the DH60M "Metal Moth" which did bear the name of Tiger Moth until the DH82 appeared.

Basically following DH's modifications of moving the cabane structure forwards, reworking the wing roots to allow for the sweepback plus extra dihedral on the lower wings had all the measurements correct. I then proceeded to get some stainless hinge parts and sundry other parts cut to allow for scale fittings for the struts, hinges, lower rear wing fittings  etc.

She is now awaiting paint but am waiting for the temperature in my garage to rise as well as the rain to cease for a while. I think I used around 12m of Oratex for the covering and rib tapes. My kit did not have the plugs shown and would definitely reinforce this area as mine seems to have longer cross members atop the cabane structure with just through holes for the wing fixings.

Edited March 31 by Ady Hayward

[Geoff Daunt]

Hi Ady, Your project is far above my modelling skills, but l do enjoy the building aspect. This has by far been my biggest challenge; especially since the Instructions are completely useless and nothing whatsoever about the rigging.

My fuselage is 90 % complete and wings and empennage complete.

l have put it aside at the moment , since very frustrated about how to proceed with getting the wings fixed in a secure position 

As you will know both upper and lower wings are essentially fixed by pins to the fuselage sides, but free to move up and down.

How do l go to set up the wings so they are firmly set in position.

All my other power models have either been fixed wing secured by bolts or secured with dihedral braces.

Any information or pictures greatly appreciated 

Geoff

[Manish Chandrayan]

Geoff, you will have to do what was done by the full scale. Jack up and level the fuse. Ensure that it does not move. Attach lower wings to the fuse (support the wings with whatever is required. I had made trestles). Block the lower wings up to required dihedral (4.5 degrees if I recall correctly). Fix the interplane struts and mount the top wing. Now attach the landing wires and adjust them so that the dihedral and incidence is correctly maintained. Once done you can remove the trestle/support from under the wing and the landing wires will take the weight of the wings. If the interplane struts are correctly made the top wing will automatically show a dihedral of 2/2.5 degrees. Attach and adjust the incidence wires and the flying wires. 

Check for sweep back, incidence etc and adjust as required. 

Fashion a root support so that the wings come off in pair. Every time you set up or disassemble the trestles will come in handy

 

[Geoff Daunt]

Hi Manish, once again to the rescue. 👍

l thought l would have to make a form of jig , but wasn’t sure the rigging wires would hold it sufficiently in place. Always something to learn, since my first biplane.And that gives me the confidence to carry on. 

 

Incidentaly rather than trying to use an incidence meter for the lower wing at 4.5 and 1 degree for upper wing, using geometry can help as follows:

set lower wing to horizontal from root: then add 86.3 mm at wing tip, this gives you 4.5 degrees.

For upper wing set again at horizontal then add 19.2 mm at wing tip, this gives you  1 degree incidence 

A maths teacher friend worked it out for me.

Might be useful to someone else doing this build 

Thanks Manish.

[Manish Chandrayan]

Happy to help Geoff, been that route with my Falcon Tiger Moth (with similar help from forum members here and elsewhere). 

 

To find the dihedral height where the angle is known, using a protractor at correct angles draw a line equal to the desired span. Measure height from baseline and you are done. Or else use a bit of high school Trigonometry.

 

I did not have an incidence gauge when I was doing my quarter scale Tiger Moth. I used my smart phone to set the lower planes to the desired angle. 

[Ady Hayward]

Hi Geoff,

I'm glad to see Manish some good answers to your  questions. I am fortunate in having invested in a couple of digital inclinometers. For the incidence they can be positioned on a suitably straight support that rests on top of the front and rear spars, and dihedral by using the same support resting on the rib tops over the hight part of the ribs/ over the front spar. Be sure to have adjustment on the rigging wires allow for a little stretch as the wires bed in. Like Manish I set the dihedral on the lower wings using the landing wires which also take the weight of the top wings via the struts. Connect the top wing at the roots supporting it until you get the struts in place. When they are at the correct lengths you can check the top wing angles and adjust before fixing the flying wires to the top wings. Usually after the first flights some slack will need to be taken up in the wires. I used the Mick Reeves flat strip with his left and right hand thread connectors for my rigging as it makes for easy adjustment. A wing root support is pretty well  essential for the easy rigging and transport of the wing panels.

[Manish Chandrayan]

Forgot to mention, before starting to set sweep back, dihedral and incidences make sure that the cabane structure is all square. The cabane wires can be adjusted to ensure that the entire frame is square and once correctly tensioned imparts rigidity to the structure.