artfs

[Tony Jones]

Adam

I agree 100%. In fact, I'd have thought there were perhaps six disillusioned potential modellers for every one that decides to persevere.

What bothers me is that sooner or later a member of the public is going to be killed or injured by someone who has been lead to believe that he can buy a 'total package' ARTF, go to the local park, and use it like any other toy. For that reason, I think the term 'Parkflyer' is almost criminally misleading. It would be nice if a certain magazine would take a stand on this (assuming the editor shares my opinion), but I doubt they would risk upsetting so many advertisers.
Best wishes
Tony Jones.

[Alistair Taylor]

Quite a few Magazines (and the BMFA) took a stand when the "build a spitfire in installments" magazine was launched, and quite rightly. Yes it did perhaps encourage more people to try the hobby, but a spitfire with 40 on the front as a first plane?!

These come up on Ebay daily, perhaps mercifully only in part-completed form....I've yet to see one fly. The web forums are similarly littered with "I'm building the spitfire, how easy is it to fly? I'm a complete novice" postings.

Anyone here tempted to buy a 40-sized spitfire kit for over £200 that takes 18 months to build?

AlistairT

[scott cuppello]

Having had much experience of Parkflyers, there are many that are way too quick for beginners, and way too quick for parks in all but the most experienced hands. A good example being the PZ Spitfire I saw being flown recently by someone at the club, very nice, but in in-experienced hands, it will end up hitting something or other at a cluttered [tree's, fences....er, people] park. Although, they do warn people on the box not to fly in public area's.

Having said all that....they are a hoot, especially if you live/work near a field, for just nipping out and having a flight, I have a Art-Tech Pitts, one of those everything in a box job....it's great only walking a few yards [rather than loading the car up and driving to the club] on an evening, and flying. And, it must be said, get's people interested in flying. I mean, who ever goes to a club to watch?

[Adam Chambers 2]

Tony,

Your comments lead me nicely into my experiences of getting into the hobby. I just couldnt find a club that had any vacancies and ended up going it alone flying illegally off farmers fields. Thankfully Im a very quick learner and wanted to build a junior 60. The combination of a slow stable model and a bit of luck ensured I survived the first few flights and got the hang of it. I still recall the amazement at landing the model in the same field!!

If clubs culled their memberships of all the non flyers and advertised themselves to schools etc, had open days etc , we would see a huge increase in new members.

Joining a club, having a try on a model suited to learning ( a big slow vintage) and then deciding whether to committ to several hundred pounds worth of kit has got to be better than the hit and miss of buying an artf model and watching it rekit itself straight away.

ARTF models themselves are not the issue but more to do with the way they are promoted and sold.

[Tony Jones]

Alistair
My club has a new member who's first foray into RC was going to be one of those 'installment' Spitfires. He actually completed it and was planning to fly it one evening last year. By sheer good fortune he mentioned it to a work colleague who - unknown to him - was a member of our club. Our member had a lot of trouble convincing the other guy that he was headed for disaster, by finally prevailed.
So he now has a Ready2 and is about to pass his A test. The Spitfire remains unflown and intact ready for when he has a bit (a lot?) more experience.
When that happens I'll be able to answer your original question!
Cheers
Tony

[Alistair Taylor]

Adam/Tony

I think you've hit the maxim on the proverbial.

There seems to be no end of individuals interested in taking up the hobby (or the spitfire magazine would have died a death immediately), but the "joining a club" bit, or "learning to fly" bit, or "getting the knowledge" bit only seem to happen by luck or accident.

There's no "system" in place to catch the enthusiastic novice before they have all the enthusiasm crashed/spent out of them.

Are ARTF manufacturers to blame?

I believe that all ARTF manufacturers do put quite detailed warnings on their products, as do engine manufacturers, but it does sometimes seem that some planes are sold as automatically transforming the purchaser into Douglas Bader.

Of course, the manufacturers might be tempted to respond, "a fool and his money are easily parted...". This situation does mean that only people with determination (like Adam) persist in the sport/hobby, but the risk of injury to the purchaser and the public is a real one.

So should the clubs do more recruiting/deselecting non-flying members?

I think some do, despite saremongering about child protection legislation and potential legal claims, and then they wind up being so popular that.....people like Adam are unable to join them.....

Maybe Scott's question, "who goes to a club to watch?" is actually the answer to this chicken and egg situation

If clubs spread the word in schools about model flying, including safety issues, by putting on displays/giving talks, even if they're not able to take on new members, they will at least have ingrained some "model sense" among potential future fliers.

This should mean that even if these fliers fly outside the controls of a club, they do join the BMFA, they do have insurance, and they do fly sensibly.

AlistairT

[Adam Chambers 2]

"There's no "system" in place to catch the enthusiastic novice before they have all the enthusiasm crashed/spent out of them"

Ive had so many clubs say they dont want to advertise and like to keep quiet. I found a club 5 miles from my home by complete accident and doesnt advertise.

[scott cuppello]

May I add that it's very daunting for most newcomers to stand on the flightline with some guy prop hanging a 100" Yak. Obviously I havn't been to clubs outside of my area, so maybe they have "beginner" days, maybe they go to schools [by the way, that's where your next generation of builders are....not 40+ guys like me]...but it's not the impression I'm getting. I do know that a lot of new guys don't last long....ARFT's maybe partially to blame....but the "daunting" aspect speaks for many.

[Grant Darnley]

Scott, most of the guys prop-hanging are experienced pilots who know how difficult it is for a beginner to concentrate while a 100cc petrol is thumping away in their ear. Certainly my own common sense sees me stay on the ground if I see a buddy lead on the flightline.

Alistair, I think the problem with [QUOTE]but it does sometimes seem that some planes are sold as automatically transforming the purchaser into Douglas Bader[/QUOTE] lies with the retailer as opposed to the manufacturer/distributor. Once the rep has convinced the hobbystore owner to buy the model his interest ends, he's made his sale. The retailer however has still to find a buyer, and if that involves selling it to a less than prepared novice with a faint "best join a club to learn to fly that" then thats what will happen. And many a beginner in this area who has asked for my has heard nothing about insurance, despite having the latest "CHINA-X ZY46 powered supertrainer" and an all singing dancing Tx

[Alistair Taylor]

Yes - Adam, Scott, Grant - I thought that was the case.

Adam - clubs sometimes stay quiet cos they don't want the hassle of lots of new members - they add to the workload of the club committee, and make the flight line busier. Some clubs (not all) are happy staying small, some set upper limits on membership. Is this right? It can seem very unfair when some members hardly ever fly, but then it's a hobby, even for committee members.

Scott - It can be very daunting, even humiliating, to discover that you can't fly the plane you just bought. Mind you, it's perhaps more daunting for the 40 yr old club stalwarts to be faced with 13 yr olds that can fly better than them :) I suspect they'd see prop-hanging a Yak as a chellenge, not a discouragement. Personally I was absolutely gutted when I saw the new design and technology classrooms at my old school, complete with hotwire foam cutting jig and vacforming machine. Where was all this in my yoof!?

Grant - Sounds to me like the BMFA needs to get more engaged (sorry) with distributors - so that every model comes with a "join the BMFA and get insured" leaflet.

The club I first joined was set up by a school teacher, Ray Malmstrom. His ex-pupils are still there, bulding and flying his designs. Maybe we need to persuade our respective clubs to do some school demos, and some teacher training?

AlistairT

[scott cuppello]

Grant, I think you have missed the point, yes, of course the guy prop hanging the 100" Yak know what he is doing and will do the appropriate thing....but the guy with the "CHINA-X ZY46 & all singing dancing tx" as you put it, is intimidated by him, regardless of how helpful he may be, and doesn't really want his efforts humiliated....rightly or wrongly....and all beginers say the same thing.....they fly badly as soon as they feel daunted by the more experienced guys.

I have 15 years experience of getting people into a certain hobby, and rule number 1, is keep it easy, simple & approachable.

[Grant Darnley]

definitely agree with that scott, but I think that the experienced have a responsibility to set the comfortable tone at the field that they are there to help rather than humiliate. Although we get a bit raw with our regular flying buddies, I would never direct anything that couldbe taken offensively at a novice.

Alistair, thats not a bad idea, wonder if they would entertain that?

[The real Ron Truth]

keep it easy, simple & approachable.

hence why I fly vintage!!!!!!

[Len Ward]

like em or not I guess ARTF's are here to stay,,but comments from reviewers suggest from time to time mods to models that they consider necessary.
How about an article re what to look for and what might need changing,and,how?
I have in mind such things as control linkages,fuel proofing of the front end if i.c.,check wing securing system,care on removing covering before gluing tail surfaces,the all important CofG,aliggnmenmt of the u/c if a tail dragger,glue joints that can be seen.
On a related topic it's possible that newcomers[and some old ones as well] could be interested in how best [?] to set up the servos to the control surfaces and throttle.
I;ve got my own pet way but I bet there are some better one's out there?
How about it Mr Miller?
Len

[David Ashby - Moderator]

Len

Some of the areas you mention are covered in Gerard Feeneys low-wing build tutorial -it's an exclusive web-only article in three parts that I've posted on the home page.

David
RCM&E

[The real Ron Truth]

Good idea Len.

You know however that this is never going to happen as it will undoubtably expose certain supplier or manufacturers for selling poor quality models. A good independent publication might not have a problem giving a balanced, honest opinion but many dont bite the hand that feeds.

Interestingly, I had a conversation with the local trading standards about a certain make of artf that was supplied with very cheap poor quality plastic fittings and a woefully inadequate firewall. The model in question practically fell apart in flight( one aileron control linkage broke and firewall came loose) and rekitted itself. They seemed interested based on the general concept that "all goods must be safe" and selling goods that are destined to fail unless upgrades are done, is something they wanted to look into. I know not all ARTF's are like this , but I know a few that are. The RCME review of a certain artf sports pitts not long ago exposed what I had already witnessed.

If you have to put so much work into getting an artf airworthy, why bother? Buy a kit and get it right from the start.

[Peter Miller]

I agree with so much of the above. We have a very small club. Membership is limited because a) we all have allocated frequencies with no duplicates and b) We use various sites and the owners would object to too many cars parked in their farmyards.
The advantage is that beginners get much more tuition because ther is no waiting for slots.
Apart from one jet we fly average sports aerobatic models and some electric so no one should feel intimidated.
We consider ours selves more a group of friends and new members come in on a trial basis of four flying sessions before they or we agree to final acceptance.
This may sound elitist but it isn't, One person was refused when he said that he wouldn't be able to come on Sundays because he had to work on Saturdays and had other things to do on Sunday!!!
It is important that a small group has a similar attitude because one discordant type can sour the whole thing as was proved a few years ago.
I can say that there are NO cliques in this club.
WE are on the West Suffolk/Essex border and we do have a couple of vacancies if anyone wants to email me.

[Tony Jones]

Peter

Funny how these days one has to apologise for words like 'elite'. In past times people would have aspired to becoming part of one.

Cheers
Tony

[The real Ron Truth]

Im afraid what you have described is exactly what is killing the sport.

Why be so hostile to someone who may have family committments on a sunday, housework etc? Why not be flexible and helpful? I fly around my family committments.

I tried joining the Winchester Model club near me and got the same " not one of us" look over and grilling.I was even asked who I worked for. My response is not typeable. No wonder I use a public site!!!

ANYONE and EVERYONE is welcome. Beaulieu Model Committee,Beaulieu Common. Hampshire. £5 a year permit.

[scott cuppello]

One of the funny things about E-Flight, is that when you are on the flightline, and they are bitching behind you about your electic plane....too costly...blah, blah, blah....they forget I can hear! I could easily have been put off, and many would....all clubs have politics....it's a fact of life....it's also what puts many off! Sorry, way off thread!

[nasa_steve]

i belong to two clubs neither advertise we are there purely because we have limited membership and don't like turning anyone away. on top of that the landowner on one site is mindfull of having too many cars on his land. plus if we were inundated with new members we would have big trouble in slotting for these extra members plus again the allocated frequency thing on my main site
nasa

[Peter Miller]

We are not hostile to people with family commitments, we have members who turn up once a year because of them, They ised to be regulars and so stay members . The problem is that we only fly on Sundays and someone who is on their probationary four visits states that they can't come on Sundays who would be taking up one of our limited spaces we feel that that is unreasonable.

[The real Ron Truth]

point taken Peter. I didnt realise that fact. My apologised if I offended.

Jetsome,

Come on down sometime... Im now the chairman of the committee due to being too damn helpful!!!Ill never learn.

[Peter Miller]

No offense taken. If one takes offense easily one should not go onto forums.

With regard to your reply to Jetsome....I know that feeling only too well.
The bit that really got me was when I asked for help to mow the grass and no one did and then I was told "You can expect people to disrupt their lives to help you"

[Tony Jones]

Peter
My experience with clubs of all sorts over many years is that the work is always done by a few dedicated individuals. Turnout for working parties and the like has always been low.

However, those few dedicated individuals don't do it out of the goodness of their hearts; they do it 'cos they are that sort of person. It also gives us (sorry, them) a nice feeling of moral superiority and the opportunity to have a good moan about the selfishness of the average member!
Cheers
Tony