Taking Off And Landing

[Stephen Grigg]

Congratulations on passing your "A" Bob, and when you stood to take off,I presume you stood behind your model and subsequently passed.Obviously your examiner wasnt Mr Very Strict Gary Pollard.Ive found it fascinating how varied the views are and the Ammunition Ive been given when my fellow ciub member tells me Im in the wrong place as his model  disappears into his favorite tree or lands with a bang 50 yards off the strip.On day I did ask him if he was trying to write off his Super Air,next day he did

[Yorkman]

Posted by Bob Moore on 21/08/2010 13:14:25:

Interesting stuff.  I like to stand behind the model because some of mine don't track very straight and it's much easier to see any slight deviation and catch it before it gets out of control. It's the pilots eye view I suppose.  I 've been told by an instructor that I should stand to the side (we don't have a pilot box we kind of stand together near our pits?)

We are supposed to shout 'on the strip' strip clear etc. Well I do at any rate!

 

Next time he mentions it I'll mention the BMFA    A guidelines which someone mentioned a way back.

 

PS  Only passed my A a couple of months ago.

 

 

 Exactly!  Especially with a multi-engined taildragger with 'scale' performance -and the York is actually quite benign in this respect, dad's DC3 which I tried and failed to get off the ground a few years back (it sits awaiting u/c strengthening and brushless upgrade) wanted to swap ends as soon as it started to move...

[Stephen Grigg]

Of course the advantage of standing behind the model is when the model does just that or a quick "U" turn you are quickly on hand to sort out and take off,whereas standing in the pilots box youve to trapse off to the model reposition it,back to the pilots box Que of frusrated ppilots waiting there turn you get flustered and under pressure a feel hurried and mess it up again,more murmerings from others you give up sit down lose confidence get depressed all because somone insists you stand in the wrong place,Oooooh that guys in for an ear bashing when I see him next its all his fault

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

I think this is a case of doing what you're comfortable with.  Those people who've learnt to take off from the side - or have done it to fit in with local procedures, are probably quite happy to do it that way and those who habitually stand behind the model are uncomfortable doing it differently.

 

I prefer to stand to one side and find no difficulty in detecting a deviation from runway heading as, apparently, do the majority of pilots at my club. I'm comfortable correcting any deviation and find I much prefer the side view for judging the model's attitude and initial climb out - but if I'm flying a familiar scale model, I usually use a reduced throttle and deliberately extend the ground run while balancing the model on the main wheels if it's a taildragger. I also like to see a positive rotation on a tricycle model but that's just for my personal satisfaction in trying to reproduce a full size flight pattern.

 

On balance, I've come to the conclusion that reducing the frequency of people going onto an active runway is preferable to any perceived advantage in making corrections from behind and I prefer to see people learning that way from the outset - I believe they will be better fliers for doing so. As at Stephen's club, there's no rule at our club against going on to the strip to take off after clearing it with existing fliers and I'd take issue with anyone trying to enforce their own opinion (like Stephen's "friend"). However, I will, and do, encourage the few who still prefer to walk out to stand behind their models to try taking off from the pilot's box, offering guidance and assistance should they wish to extend their capabilities. Those who've responded seem to be quite happy continuing to do so once they've gained confidence in the exercise.

 

While I do appreciate Stephen's point about quickly resolving a problem I still think that it's less hazardous for someone to walk out to attend to it and quickly clear the runway than to be on the runway for an extended time for each take-off.

 

Although I've never actually seen it happen, I'm sure that cases of pilots tripping or getting seriously distracted from their flying while trying to return to the pilot's box must have occurred and the consequences of an uncontrolled model while they're picking themselves and maybe their transmitters up could be rather serious. I have witnessed pilots taking an inordinate length of time clearing the runway, stopping to fly their models to a convenient position in the circuit (some of our boundaries are quite tight) before taking a few more steps towards "home". I've also had to hazard a deadstick model in order to avoid causing danger to 2 elderly gentlemen guiding each other back from a take-off who were seemingly unable to hear me or take action in response to my deadstick call.

Edited By Martin Harris on 21/08/2010 18:35:24

[Stephen Grigg]

I will be going to the field tommorrow armed with all this new found knowledge, and will be noting a lot closer the way different members  stand when taking off and landing,notes will be taken

[Stephen Grigg]

Very interesting paying closer attention and discussing the thread with other members.Nearly everyone at our club stands behind the model.it might well be that our field is quite small so we dont walk  to far to the new box.With thr Fun Cub it takes off so perfectly that i can happily take off from the pilot box.I can land close to the centre walkway to the pitts and always have enough power to taxi to the pitt entrance,

[Evan Pimm]

After 6 pages of differing, and quite dearly held views, a little addition from 'the other side of the world'. Most clubs down here use quite small grass strips, courtesy of some kind landowner. We all stand 1/2 way down the strip in some sort of 'box'. It just makes communication much easier. The other, very good, reason for doing so is simply this...at any sort of competition you might ever enter, Scale, Pattern, whatever needs a 'Takeoff' and 'Landing' you will find that there is only one place you are allowed to stand, 'runway centre'. And the very good reason for that is so you can centre your flight patterns so that the judges can both see, and mark your flight, including take off and landing, which must remain straight. It does not take much practise to learn this, and it very quickly becomes normal. It does not matter which way the wind is blowing, you very quickly learn to compensate for that too, it comes down to 'practise'. It is not ever intended to make flying harder, or the pilot superior, it just makes you disciplined, and therefore safer. Although I know of one club "instructor" who crosses the 'active' if the wind blows the other way 'cause he can only land from one direction...

Evan.

[Lee Smalley]

Lads it seems that some of you are missing the point, and some of you are taking this as an opportunity to bang on about over regulation “and that’s why I fly alone” mentality.

Well that’s all well and good but as you are not members of a club you do not know how it works, there is no over regulation its just good old common sense, if you want to or feel the need to you are more than welcome to stand behind your model for take off, we do not like it if you are there for half an hour while you tweek stuff, but other than that its not a problem.

And you can pass your A like that,

As for the pilot box it just helps with communication, things like “low pass from the left, loop in the middle, ok to prop hang over the strip?”

Simple, common sense, manners.

If you call that over regulation then I call you selfish !

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Well said, Lee.

 

[David Turner 5]

I don't recall anyone suggesting that the pilots should not congregate ... in a box, if you  like. That is a "straw-man" argument, afaics. In other words, you have successfully argued against your own case.

 

The common sense argument is similarly weak.  Clearly, there is no "sense in common" when it comes to this issue. If there were, we should all be in agreement. I think that what you are trying to say, when you use the term "common sense" is that you are right and the rest of us, if we disagree with you, are somehow lacking in this wonderful ingredient "common sense".

 

If common sense dictates that I should stand in front of an accelerating model, then I am thankful to have been born without it!

[Lee Smalley]

oh dear !!!

 

well if thats how you feel David then that sir is up to you, iand i respect your right to think like that, my right will be to not fly anywhere near you, so that we should never have a problem.

 

ps not sure about baffling words used to make a point, i think they rather detract from the point you are trying to make, or maybe its just me lacking intelligence enough to figure out what your on about !!

Edited By Lee Smalley on 23/08/2010 14:41:06

[David Turner 5]

I can't understand why you wouldn't want to fly near to me.

 

If I choose to stand abaft my model during departure, am I to be judged by you as some sort of "dodgy" flyer? Similarly, if I choose to stand near to the threshold during landing, am I somehow less capable than you?

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

David,

 

I think you may be better off vaguely in front of, but also to the side of a model which still has the option of being left on the ground than standing close to where one will soon be whistling past your ear'ole on its approach

 

Yours appears to be a lone voice - perhaps we've all got it wrong over the years and looked at in isolation yours seems a good point but but there are multiple considerations such as, for example, operating at one end of a runway can reduce visibility of the upwind end - particularly if the airfield isn't a flat unobstructed site which could hazard unsuspecting persons out of direct sight of the operator. How many models have wandered off line in the later stages of a stretched approach as a consequence of ground feature induced turbulence and reduced control effectiveness as the speed is decaying in the hands of an inexperienced (and sometimes not so inexperienced) pilot? Not too much of a hazard unless you're standing close to where it's being aimed - i.e. the threshold!

Lee's point was about tolerance and flexibility which I thoroughly agree with.

[Lee Smalley]

i have never said that if you wish to stand behind the model for take off, thats means your rubbish   no i have allways said that is up to you, i don't really mind what you do as long as you dont stand on the runway for an hour deciding what to do i really don't care, as long as you consider other people when and how you fly it matters not a jot, however i recognise that not all people are of the same ability or disposition (thankfully) and as such you may choose to fly how you wish, however i also have the choice to wait until you have finished before i choose to fly, that is my choice.  with your opinions i feel that would be the case

Edited By Lee Smalley on 23/08/2010 15:46:13

[Stephen Grigg]

Obviously you lads dont have another phrase that we use at our club,if someone is messing about holding otheres up we shout"Get that wreck off of the Strip" its done in the best possible taste and usually works.We do sometimes get the response" ive paid my subs and Im getting my monies worth" ,as they move,glider flyers AAAH

[Phil Claridge]

stephen, give us a bell, i've left you a pm cheers

[Steve W-O]

I used to stand behind the model, but that was because the pits/pilot area was on the edge of a very large field, with very tall trees behind the pits, so the way away from the trees was away from me. I didn't worry which way the wind was, if it took off sideways, fine, so long as it took off.

Now it makes no difference to me where I stand in relation to the model, so I am happy to stand in the pilot box when at the club, and usually take off across me when in a field/park.

 

More interesting than the direction of take off, is the differences of opinion. People posting here probably are a fair cross section of flyers, as are members of a club. If the posters here were members of the same club, the need for standards and guidelines becomes clear, as opinions of what is common sense obviously are not common to all.

 

At the same time, H&S has gone completely crazy here, and in some parts of the world where H&S rules don't exist, there doesn't seem to be any huge increase in accidents. (Like flying a helicopter inside a shopping mall with shoppers walking close by, or fixed wing over a city, including over busy main roads)

 

But it would probably be as difficult to agree on a balance as it would be to  agree on the topic of this thread.

[Stephen Grigg]

I saw today the advantage of learning to take off from the pilots box.The wind .of which there was very little was from the left.Our pilot box,yes the one it to the right of the pitts.So, a lot of steadfast members were flying on the left not in the box.Those of us who go by club rules were walking from taking off ( behind the model) to the pilot box,in amongst  those in the pitts who were talking.The gent who instigated the box, was placing his model at the take off area,walking to the pilot box and having very challenging take offs.I have tried taking off from the pilot box bu havent mastered it because Im not confident enough to give the model full throttle.Some time on my own doing touch ang goes may help.

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Hi Stephen,

 

I think doing good straight take-off's from the pilot's boxe at the side of the runway is just a question of practice. I'll freely admit that it was something I had to "work at" in my early days!

 

I think one of the "secrets" of sucess is to take your time opening the throttle. If you "slam" it open you will get a big time swing to the left which will be hard to correct. But if you gradually, but purposefully, "push" the throttle then the swing is less violent and more easily contained with the rudder. Another trick to use if you find that you are a bit "heavy handed" on the rudder - over correcting - is to dial in some expo - about 30% - on rudder. That should help.

 

You really do at the hang of doing it from the side quite quickly and you'll be amazed how soon you are doing nice straight take-off's - complete with rudder correction - without even thinking about it!

 

BEB

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

The only thing I could add to BEB's excellent advice is to suggest that you work up to pilot box take-offs gradually by starting from part way back from the model to the box if your club will agree to the practice.  It's not really any easier (or harder) but it will feel more familiar...

Edited By Martin Harris on 01/09/2010 00:39:20

[Stephen Grigg]

I need to get there on my own to practise,I feel most vulnerable when walking after taking off,see, its multi tasking and we cant do that!!

[Ross Clarkson]

It becomes clear that the first ever bit of advice i was given by my instructor (Paul Heckles) before my first ever flight was the best advice, the position where i would stand!

 

In the pilots box halfway down the strip adjacent to the runway and i will not move!!!

This bit of advice has stuck with me ever since and i always stand in this position now wherever i fly so that take off is crossing me left to right or right to left. 

Yes, it was hard at first to get used to but i feel this massively helped me with orientation specifically when landing, because i knew i couldn't move and landing would be in the same perspective and orientation as takeoff!!

Also, circuits and flying are always flown in front of me so i never have to move. 

If you find this a struggle, stand still but turn your body in the direction of takeoff holding the tx in front of you which will aid orientation. Just turn your head to look at the model.

You will soon not be turning your body.

[Stephen Grigg]

Where have you been Ross

[David Turner 5]

If your argument is that "a good pilot says stand mid-way along the runway, therefore it must be the right thing to do", how would you react to a video which shows another "good pilot" (Ali) standing behind his model for departure?

 

It's out there, on Youtube.  They can't both be "right" ... or can they?

Edited By David Turner 5 on 04/09/2010 13:23:33

[Steve W-O]

Posted by David Turner 5 on 04/09/2010 13:22:53:

If your argument is that "a good pilot says stand mid-way along the runway, therefore it must be the right thing to do", how would you react to a video which shows another "good pilot" (Ali) standing behind his model for departure?

 

It's out there, on Youtube.  They can't both be "right" ... or can they?

Edited By David Turner 5 on 04/09/2010 13:23:33

 

 

What about all the good pilots who sit behind the controls and travel down the runway with their aircraft?  Never seen one sitting looking out the side window