I say ban 'em !

[Doug Ireland]

Banning them wouldn't work but I agree there should be some regulation over their use.

 

After all, what is to stop someone from operating one of these models on their own property? Presently it is legal to fly a full-size aeroplane from your own property without a valid Pilots License, as long as you stay outside of controlled airspace.

[andy watson]

I'm sorry, but I couldn't disagree more.

 

The first reason is that it is simply unenforceable.  There is no way to stop someone on private land flying an RC jet.

 

Secondly I am unconvinced by the reasons for a ban.  As Timbo posted in the original thread, the glider speed record is higher than this- so the hand wringing over the amount of kinetic energy these things has will pull in all manner of other planes.  That airframe looks pretty small, so if you want to ban that due to the danger posed by KE you would also have to ban an airframe weighing 4 times as much (I bet my 80" stuka comes close) that travels 1/4 the speed- 75mph (Hmmm, would my stuka do that in a dive?).

 

As to the fire risk- well methanol is just as flammable as kerosene.  The fact that jet jockeys bring a fire extinguisher does not make it riskier than IC, it simply means they are more aware of the risks.  Now you might argue that it is more of a fire hazard, but as far as I am aware there has been a very good safety record with jets, so they are obviously doing something right.  And there is a 100% reduction in accidents involving props!

 

The real question though, is how would a ban work with a less sophisticated audience than ourselves- ie the general public.  To them there is no difference between a turbine and an EDF.  I doubt many people would see a significant risk difference beteween a high speed small jet and a 6/7 foot IC plane.  After all, how often do you hear the safety nazis telling you that you have a lethal piece of equipment in the pits with you?

 

I suggets a high speed jet that is operated properly (as in the video) is not a significantly higher risk than any other properly operated RC plane beyond the smallest .  As to those people suggesting they just sling these things in the air without a care- I suggest cost stops most of these people before they start.  I think the BMFA recommends a B before flying jets- I think that is a perfectly sensible suggestion, but a ban will prove the very thin end of a very thick wedge.

[Bob Moore]

that it is simply unenforceable.  There is no way to stop someone on private land flying an RC jet.

 

 

I'm a bit of a newbie at this, but above certain model weights aren't there CAA regs ,  (ANO's) about this?

 

 

As the poster of the clip Tim linked, I do see his point.  Nothing is infallibly reliable no matter how well maintained.  But flown in appropraite places, disused airfields, etc.,  with well defined flight lines, etc. I guess reasonably safe.  As safe as it can be anyway. Full size jets have crashed and injured people at air displays I think.

 

And as said a large IC powered  model out of control can be equally as dangerous.

 

I expressed concern in the thread linked about amateurs flying drones (at some speed) in residential areas. He was flying 4k away from take off at times. In another clip linked the guy ran out of power and force landed in a road. (Don't know how he found the model, though he obviously did. GPS info from his display maybe.)

Edited By Bob Moore on 08/11/2010 13:44:37

[Slopetrashuk]

Posted by Ultymate on 08/11/2010 12:22:08:
It would indeed be nice to see/hear Slopetrash UK's take on this thread 

 Oh dear.....

 

Which head would you like me to put on?

Official British Speed record holder?

DS advocate?

Jet modeller?

Lead sled flier?

9 years as a BMFA Director?

 

Sorry guys but there are enough people outside of aeromodelling trying to stop us doing ANY of it at all to pay too much attention to a thread where fellow fliers are advocating bans on other fliers!

 

Personally I'd be more concerned about a large model being flown by a guy who has abstained from practice during the four years it took him to make it, than I would about a fast jet or DS glider. Or what about those free flight guys! No control at all there once they've let 'em go!.....

 

The BMFA will defend the right of all aeromodellers to participate in any aeromodelling discipline provided it is executed within the bounds of the law.

No need to 'Ban The Lot Of Them' just 'cos it's not your bag.

 

'United We Achieve'

 

Andy.

 

Edited By Slopetrashuk on 08/11/2010 13:59:36

[Marc Humphries]

Dusting off my rusty physics, Kinetic energy is 1/2 mass x (velocity squared.)

 

So let's assume a mass of 10kg for that jet, and a velocity of 120 m/s (approx 266 mph)

 

Thats:

 

1/2 x 10 x (120 x 120) = 72,000 Joules

 

Potential Energy = mass x gravitational pull x height.

 

So at the top of those big 100 metre loops and reversals

 

10 x 9.8 x 100 = 9,800 Joules

 

So total Energy in that little turbine jet is:

 

72,000 + 9,800 = 81,800 Joules

 

Let's calibrate that.

 

BMW Mini at 30 mph          = 92,000 Joules

BMW Mini at 70 mph          = 511,000 Joules

TNH B-50 at 60 mph          = 13,000 Joules

GWS Formosa at 50 mph = 150 Joules

 

Yup, that little jet packs a punch!!

 

[John Muir]

What was this guy doing wrong, exactly?

 

Well, flying a 7kg+ model at over 400ft for a start. That's a breach of the ANO, so illegal. Probably even in Holland or wherever the guy was. Unless he had permission from local ATC of course. The 'needle nose' would breach BMFA guidelines if they applied, but that's just ignoring a recommendation. Maybe other things too, but you can't tell much from a video.

 

Definitely could need regulation. Using Marc's figures a 20kg model at say 88mph would have an energy level of 16000 joules, or about 20% of that 10kg jet. Which is more dangerous? Especially considering the amount of sky the jet would eat up. Why not extend the LMA regs to all jet powered models over 7kg? Make sure they have equipment redundancy, proper fail-safe provision and get the models and their pilots inspected and flight checked. And limit the sites they can be flown from.

 

There is no way to control the post crash fire hazard aspect, other than fly over something that isn't easily set alight. I.e. not dry crops in the middle of summer. A fire extiguisher on the flight line isn't much use if the fire is half a mile away!

[Slopetrashuk]

Needle noses John? You need a new BMFA handbook mate!

[Ultymate]

I knew your opinion would be a gud un Andy  

[andy watson]

erm........ Just a note- Marc is correct in KE = 1/2 mass * velocity ^2

 

I was being naughty and replying at work, so was rushing and not concentrating.

 

The fact that I am a science teacher should be ignored!

[Steve W-O]

Posted by andy watson on 08/11/2010 15:18:49:

erm........ Just a note- Marc is correct in KE = 1/2 mass * velocity ^2

 

I was being naughty and replying at work, so was rushing and not concentrating.

 

The fact that I am a science teacher should be ignored!

  

 

There's an old saying, those who can't do it teach it, and those who can't teach it, teach the teachers 

 

Of course, today it must have just been a typing error.

 

Plus I'm jealous, I can't post anything from school, our filter stops the reply box working

[John Muir]

Posted by Slopetrashuk on 08/11/2010 14:46:24:

Needle noses John? You need a new BMFA handbook mate!

 Oops! But in my defence, I don't get a BMFA handbook as I'm in the SAA (and the nose radius thing is still in their handbook). So it would be a breach of guidelines in Scotland .

[Vecchio Austriaco]

Today we stop jet models, tomorrow planes of a certain size and weight, and after that we stop the hobby completely as it is against the interest of some lobbying group.

 

In my opinion we should have the possibility to fly what we want as long as we take the necessary care and responsibility and fulfil the local rules.

 

Otherwise we will end in making static display models - they don't crash if there isn't an accident during dusting.

 

Don't ban them (even I don't fly them) VA 

[Tony Smith 7]

Posted by Doug Ireland on 08/11/2010 12:47:43:

 

Presently it is legal to fly a full-size aeroplane from your own property without a valid Pilots License, as long as you stay outside of controlled airspace.

I would be surprised if that's the case, even if you stayed within (above) your own property while flying it.  

[Bob Moore]

Presently it is legal to fly a full-size aeroplane from your own property without a valid Pilots License, as long as you stay outside of controlled airspace.

 

I'm almost positive that is not the case in the U.K.  though I can't find anything to copy and paste to support my statement by Googling.  Give me five minutes and I will.

 

For a start there's this.

 

A microlight must also have either a wing loading at the maximum weight authorised not exceeding 25 kg per square metre or a stalling speed at the maximum weight authorised not exceeding 35 knots calibrated speed. All UK registered aeroplanes (3-axis or flex-wing) falling within these parameters are Microlight aircraft.

A license is required to fly a microlight in the UK

 

No mention of 'unless you fly it from your back garden'!

 

Footlaunched is a bit different. ie powered paraglider. You can fly that without a licence and apparently airspace infringements are quite common. (Probably because some of the people who fly them know nothing about air law , or airspace.)

I don't think you can even fly a powered- paraglider trike in the UK without a licence, 'cos it has wheels.

 

edit . ok here's another cut n paste

 

FAQ "Do I need a license to fly a "Trike"?

I presume by Trike you mean a Powered Parachute flown "single seat" under SSD
(single seat deregulation ) conditions ? (as opposed to a Flexwing Microlight)

by law you need the CAA license - NPPL Powered Parachute
licence

The full details can be found at http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/LASORS2008%20(Bookmarked).pdf
on the CAA website.

Edited By Bob Moore on 08/11/2010 16:47:21

Edited By Bob Moore on 08/11/2010 16:48:21

Edited By Bob Moore on 08/11/2010 16:49:10

Edited By Bob Moore on 08/11/2010 16:51:20

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

I wouldn't be in favour of banning gas turbine powered models as a group. A guy at our club flies them regularly and yes they are fast - but nothing like as fast as that one in the video! Special cases make bad law - that that overpowered delta is a very special case! Its not typical of GT powered model.

 

I notice the clip was Dutch - well we have a precedent here don't we? Anyone else remember the Dutch R/C Pulse Jet display team that used to do the rounds of the shows 10-15 years ago? Very similar speeds. That ended up being banned didn't it. The world didn't come to an end!

 

I think the problem here is not the gas turbine as such - its the way its being used. If anyone could go out and buy one of these overpowered monsters on ebay, or if they started to become very popular with the jet jockeys, I'd be more concerned. But I think the truth is this is one off from someone who likely has a lot experience with very fast jets. Its not a trend. And frankly in my view its unlikely to become one - with me anyway - cos once its done a couple passes its pretty boring really!

 

BEB

Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother on 08/11/2010 16:53:55

[Slopetrashuk]

Jo Koulen and the dutch jet team were not banned - they crashed. Right into the central reservation of the dual carriageway outside of Woodvale.

I used to do the explosives there for many years and the speeds were not comparable. Jo's Shadow pulse jets were lucky to touch 200mph back then. We raced each other once with a tuned and piped redshift 0.61 powered Devils Duster from the Complete A Pac plans and he didn't walk it!

 

My Windsock mini delta 2000 did 234mph during my record setting runs. Latterly I had a Rossi 53 DF engined model which I used to race against the Magnums and Balsa Cabin Demons. We clocked that on the official record course (200m straight and level with a 100m run in) at almost 280mph.

 

Now of course I fly jets and in my experience the people and models who are not capable of flying aircraft like this at these sort of speeds do not last out.

 

I note Timbo reckons they should only be allowed at special 'shows' and organised events.

Good one that. Cram in the public to fill up the flying field then let the high powered jets loose!

I think some of you guys should concentrate on what happens on your own fields before you go looking for somebody else's problems to fix.

Modellers talking of banning modellers is the very thin end of the wedge.

Come the revolution I'm going straight for the leccy power fliers buzzing the Orme in 20mph winds!

 

Andy

 

[Slopetrashuk]

Posted by John Muir on 08/11/2010 15:34:00:

Posted by Slopetrashuk on 08/11/2010 14:46:24:

Needle noses John? You need a new BMFA handbook mate!

 Oops! But in my defence, I don't get a BMFA handbook as I'm in the SAA (and the nose radius thing is still in their handbook). So it would be a breach of guidelines in Scotland .

 I'm sure if William Wallace was a model flier they would be encouraged and pointed at the English!

[kiwi g]

Pylon racers, extremely fast flown in circuits, with on looking crowd..

Thermal gliders are more often than not flown to heights that are barely visiable.

3d aircraft are regulary flown within feet of the pilot(and other people)

Jets get hot,

 

point being although I can see issues with what the jet pilot was doin, it was as safe as any club day around the world.

Ive seen learners planes crash into the pits, cars ,etc. and its all about the way they hit the object as to damage done.

 

Should this type of flying be controlled, I think yes but then what is goin to stop the jet flying out of range, or control.

Should it be banned ,i think not but what do you do to make it safe ,some sort of out of range fault system that auto shuts the fuel and deploys a chute????

Unfortunately one day there will be a accident and then we will all be affected and regulated.

So think about what your flying and where and try to keep things safe.

 

You have to admit for a speed freak it was really cool.

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Ultymate]

Back in the day I think we all called ourselves aero modellers and were proud to do so but nowadays we seem to want to compartmentalise ourselves into insular groups and cast suspicious glances into the other compartments and cast aspersions in their directions, never trying to realise the skills involved in these different disciplines.

          Maybe I'm out of step here but I can sit/stand and watch and wonder at all the disciplines, some of the younger generation can do amazing things in 3D with both helis and fixed wings, I try some 3D stuff in a limited way but I'm afraid it's probably a trick too far for this old dog. What pains me though is to hear old farts of my generation knocking the youngsters for doing it, 3D that is, and the youngsters moan about oldies just doing circuits. What I'm preaching I suppose is more tolerance and understanding, as Andy said back up the thread "United we'll achieve".   

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[David Turner 5]

You know, in order to call for a "ban" on something, a person has to have a deep belief that his own "rights" supersede those of the other party.

 

Some would call that elitist, or arrogant or discriminatory.

[Doug Ireland]

Posted by Tony Smith 7 on 08/11/2010 16:02:44:

Posted by Doug Ireland on 08/11/2010 12:47:43:

 

Presently it is legal to fly a full-size aeroplane from your own property without a valid Pilots License, as long as you stay outside of controlled airspace.

I would be surprised if that's the case, even if you stayed within (above) your own property while flying it.  

 

Trust me Tony, it is true.

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Ultymate]

Posted by Phil Wood on 08/11/2010 20:26:05:

I have a feeling that Timbo's call for a ban was just a little bit mischevous....

This is the bloke that doesn't "tap on the head" with a 1oz model..........He whacks you with a whopping great WildThing!!!!............INVERTED!!!!

 

Own up Tim.........are you trying to liven the place up?

Polyheadsore.

 It's upped the viewing figures and no ones spat their dummy yet 

Edited By Ultymate on 08/11/2010 20:38:02

Edited By Ultymate on 08/11/2010 20:38:44