i want to learn the correct way to turn

[Andrew Smith 5]

Hi all, Coming from a heli background then moved onto, a foam wing then onto a foam profile ,which I seem to fly ok all self taught, I have now got a new balsa plane waiting for its maiden. My question is how is nthe best use of rudder used in a left turn, I know you can roll left and pull elevator but I want to learn the correct way. Maybe jumping the gun but have read lots about mixes r/a and a/r unsure which you use when used in a turn,, thanks and apologies if this has been asked before.

[BB]

What are you learning on andrew.  It can make a big difference.  Most folks start on modern airframes with little rudder input, 'bank 'n yank'.  Warbirds generally require 'R' input.

 

Over use will cause an early prang for the un-wary.  Fly ailerons only, then learn the input amount of 'R', gradualy. Do'nt hold it in for a steep turn.  Practice trice the height first.

 

Then theirs opposite 'R' to aileron mix for a 'flat' turn.  Loadsa scenarios out there to learm mate.

 

[Andrew Smith 5]

I've got an Eflite Sukhoi did a bit of flat turn with my foam ms unique seemed like was twisting/forcing it, regarding mixes confused as which I would use, but will learn rudder gently

[Andy Harris]

Andrew

 

  Don't worry about mixes on the eflite model it will be fine without. (I assume its the 25 size one)

 

  The only caution I would raise is airspeed, I use the same caution on myself every year as I switch from the indoor to the outdoor season.  Foamies can cope with much lower airspeed in the tun without dropping.

 

 On the rudder side try using a drop of opposite rudder in the turn, it'll sit right in the air when you have it right. Will also help with keeping the height spot on as you work up to your 'B'.

 

 You can practice on the MS Unique, try a few knife edge passes that'll let you know when the rudder input is right.   I have a MS foam bipe that runs as 180W peak which I use to practice stuff that would put the rest of my fleet at risk.

 

 I've witnessed two heli pilots switch to fixed wing, their progress was very quick.

 

happy landings ... 

[Andrew Smith 5]

It's the Su 26 model, good warning about speed in the turn, opposite rudder would that try and keep plane level? Is that also same stick direction for knife edge but bigger throws? Am really loving flying planes much more fun than heli? and yes picking it up quick but want to make sure on the right lines. If I were to set a mix for knife edge which would be master, more curious like to know? Thanks for info so far.

[flytilbroke]

Knife edge passes for a beginer??? Whups  

 

For an aileron equiped model, gentle aileron and a bit of Up Elevator, keep your speed up until you are comfortable with your flying. Reduce speed for landing though. Forget rudder except on the ground. When more experienced then find out what the rudder does.

 

Good advice to stay high though until ready to land as in the turn a big mistake most make is keeping too much aileron input which means a rapid rolling into a dive.

 

For tail only control, usually with a model with good wing dihedral, rudder will turn the model, elevator to control height in the turn. Centre the sticks and the model will level out easily.

[Ross Clarkson]

Im with FTB on this one.

Aileron and elevator in the turn and then when you are happy with this, gradually incorporate some rudder and just play with it at height to work out the effects yourself.

Just have a play and enjoy.

[Andrew Smith 5]

Lol knife edge, I like to understand how and why things work ven though am not ready for them

 

, yes by sound of it will need more speed for the balsa plane (and height)

 

Just waiting for a nice dry day to test the new one.

[Jonathan Lewzey]

there's no need to overcomplicate turns on models that just need the right stick (mode 2) for turns. just use that smoothly and it will turn fine. rudder comes later on for aerobatics

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

....Or for scale jobs that just wont turn on ailerons. Biplanes commonly suffer from this problem.

 

I understand your desire to "understand" (if you see what I mean!). So here goes:

 

1. The guys are right - a lot of models are perfectly happy turning on aileron and elevator only - including most of the aerobatic ones. So just work to perfect that.

 

2. How would you use a rudder in the turn? Well several ways depending on what you are trying achieve. Let say you have a Tiger Moth like mine. Just one set of ailerons and they are pretty ineffective anyway. But worse, the down going aileron actually generates more drag than the up going one. So far from promoting a turn, say right, the ailerons have the opposite effect and make the plane stick its nose out to the left! Here you put in rudder in the direction of the turn - so right turn, right rudder, right aileron. How much? Well how tight do you want to turn? Its a feel thing!

 

3. Next up you've got a skitish model, doesn't like flying slow. But you've got to land it sometime. To make things worse its a bit windy. You don't want to make that last turn onto finals with loads of bank and a low airspeed. So what do you do? Easy - bring in your rudder and make the turn "flatish" - side slip her in. This time initiate the turn with ailerons - lets say the turn is to the right again - so a bit of right aileron and up elevator. Feed in right rudder to push the turn on, then, this is the clever bit, take out the aileron. Turn entirely on the rudder now and start to hold in some opposite "left" aileron if necessary - just enough to stop the plane from banking too much.

 

4. Your on finals - there is a cross wind - the model is crabbing sideways. The model of course is not flying sideways! Relative to the wind she's flying straight. But because the wind is at an angle to the runway she "appears" to be going sideways. If you land like this the model will run into the pits! What to do? Well at first - nothing! Just let her come down, she's happy going "sideways"! Just as you flare to touch down push in some rudder to "straighten" things out and some opposite aileron to stop the bank - how much? Just enough to keep the wings level.

 

Now these are tricky - and if you can pull them off you'll be a really good pilot. But you said you wanted to understand - right? Well there are some examples.

 

How to learn this stuff? Well I think Andy's idea is not as daft as it at first sounds. 99% of the time you are using the rudder balanced with helping or opposing aileron. You need to learn how to balance the rudder and the aileron against each other. And that feel is vital - its different model to model. Two exercises will help. Try flying completely flat turns. You will need to use the rudder to turn and opposing aileron to stop the bank. When you can do that you that try flying complete circuits flat. And then,...try doing a figure 8 with flat turns. That will teach you the feel of rudder turns with opposing aileron. The second exercise is the knife-edge as Andy says. Do it nice and high - but again it will teach you the feel for the rudder balanced against this time the elevator and aileron!

 

Have fun

 

BEB

 

PS Don't blame me if you stuff your model! Just put it down to experience. Try on a sim first!

[Andrew Smith 5]

Thanks exactly what im after good examples and explanations biggles, Im new to fixed wing so my terminology is a bit out at times,

Yes like to know what will happen on some stick commands, hopefully things will be more precise using my new model rather than my foamy, but it has and still is great for learning on, did dome flat turns on the foamy and they seem to be very wide turns is that the trade off?

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Depends on the model Andrew - and how much rudder authority you have. Some models can do quite tight flat turns - some "resist" it!

 

I've thought of another example for you - really advanced stuff this!

 

Suppose you're on appraoch and find yourself way too high. If you just shove the nose down you'll loose the hieght OK but you'll also gain a lot of unwanted airspeed which will be problem over the strip as you try to flair to touch down. Again use of your rudder can help here.

 

Push in some rudder and enough opposite aileron so that you have some actual aileron bank on in the opposite sense to the rudder. Its like doing a flat turn but using more aileron and so not allowing the plane to turn. It should stay striaght if you have it right, but partially sideways on and slightly "inwardly" banked. You will lose a lot of lift this way and decend very quickly, but because this configuration cause so much drag you will not accelerate very much! So you get height loss without speed gain. Just take it off once you are at the right height for your point in the approach. This technique is called "side slipping"

 

Practice this very high at first - the model will loose height rapidly! And be careful because if you're slow in this move and have any up elavator in its a very effective method for sending the model into a spin! In fact its the fancy way of entering spin and more subtle than the conventional wait for a stall then bang the sticks into the corners method!

 

BEB

Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 08/01/2011 15:06:11

[Ross Clarkson]

Side slip BEB?

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Yeap - cross posted I think Ross! I actually say this in the second post.

 

BEB

[Andy Harris]

Confessions:

 

  I've been told-off before about suggesting beginners use rudder.

  All the club pilots whose flying I aspire to use copious rudder.

  Whilst 'B' training an Instructor at Paul Heckles removed rudder from my TX

 

My Logic:

 

  Andrew S has come from a heli background where rudder (tail) control is one of the primary skills.

  Andrew S has all ready worked out how to flat turn

  Eflite Su 26 leans towards an intermediate model

  I believe it is natural progression for foamies to take risk burden once the proper models arrive.

 

..and reflecting on the indoor season, rudder definitely helps with avoiding wall contact.  Yesterday I found it much easier to navigate a packed session with F3P style foamies than with a 'Tetra' or the UMX 'Beast'

 

However the overriding rule is that the Moderators are always balanced and right, that's why they get appointed as Moderators.  So, Mr Smith I'd say follow their advice (but sneak a bit of bad-boy rudder in when they're not looking )

[Andrew Smith 5]

So sideslipping sounds almost lik an airbrake,

When i was learning heli was fixed blkade twister which mean as the blades spin faster the model rises quite basic but the gyro on the tail wasnt very good so was constantly correcting it so use of rudder seemed easy to me now, but like i said earlier wanted to learn how the rest of you cornered, but impressed with some of the explantions thanks, Andy S

[flytilbroke]

Every thing in it's turn

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Andy, I don't think you're wrong at all - which is why I actually backed your post. And illustrated several ways to use rudder in various moves. If you note I too encouraged Andrew to try knife edging. Like you perhaps, I believe beginners should be taught the use of the rudder as early as possible - certainly as soon as they have mastered basic aileron/elevator turns. And also like you, I had noted Andrew's comment that he had flown heli's where yaw control is far most extensively used. And I couldn't agree more that indoor flying would be almost impossible without extensive use of the rudder.

 

So the last para of your post in which you imply that I have opposed the use of rudder by Andrew really perplexes me?

 

BEB

 

 

[Andy Harris]

BEB -- no worries from me, looking back over the thread I'd mistaken your comments with FTBs - and it was only a playful nudge anyway - please use your powers to remove it!

 

For Andrew Smith:  Yes it is like using an airbrake. I use maximum rudder on the Panics (mad BiPlane) and the Addiction (3D trainer) to land.  But I wouldn't do the same on the Fliton Inspire 60 because the rudder comes round to about 50 degrees and not 80. As you move the rudder the tail swings round, this gets progressively stronger until you pass a certain point where turning effect tails off and the braking effect increases.  If the rudder does not go past this point you need to balance with more opposite aileron as in BEB's post.

 

Your SU 26 will have similar traits to the Inspire so you won't be able to use the rudder as a raw brake.  Somewhere in RCME is an article on cross-wind landing, it describes the side slip well.

 

The technique is really useful if you are in the circuit with slower models and you want to choose your overtaking point. 

 

BEB's post explains what happens whereas I tend to say what it looks and feels like.  BEB also has a note about entering a spin, this will be particularly valid for your SU 26.  With a Panic you'd enter a flat spin which would be slow and good fun, the SU 26 on the other hand would lose height more rapidly.

 

Our field has a factory, road and social club on 3 of 4 sides so for bigger/faster models tight circuits are the order of the day.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

I'd just like to add a note of caution to BEB's very informative posting earlier.

 

The suggestion to use rudder to turn when low and slow sounds to me to be a recipe for a wing drop/incipient spin. I was always taught (and in turn taught pupils) to perform all turns (in full sized gliders where use of the rudder to counteract adverse yaw is a basic requirement) in a balanced condition.

 

If you yaw an aircraft with low airspeed, you slow the inner wing and this can result in it stalling - the reaction then to pick up the wing with aileron adds more drag to the inner wing and effectively increases the AoA (as the chord line is measured from the aileron TE to the wing LE) deepening the stall. The result often involves a cartwheel and a plastic bin liner...

 

Incidentally, in a sidelip, most aircraft find their elevators are less effective due to airflow being shaded by the fuselage and very often, in a fully developed sideslip, you can find you have full, or large up elevator delections in order to keep the nose up and airspeed under control so stalling off a sideslip is not usually a problem.

 

In practical terms, use of the rudder is less important in turns on the average power model, particularly when flown at typically over-scale speeds but if you watch the model in the turn and the tail appears to hang low, that's an indication that you need some rudder to balance the turn.  In a light aircraft, the primary use of rudder is to trim out yaw due to power changes and very little rudder is usually required to balance turns - and without some form of seat of the pants or slip ball telemetry slip (or skid) would be very difficult to detect from the ground.

Edited By Martin Harris on 09/01/2011 22:34:07

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Your quite right Martin I should have made it clearer - what I was trying to say was if your model feels dodgy in a slow aileron/elevator turn onto finals then the use of the rudder (in coordination - ie same way as the ailerons) can be a way of using less bank in that turn at a faster airspeed. Fair point that if you use the rudder/elevator/aileron combination at low speed you're really asking for the inside wing to stall and you'll go into a spin - as I warned in the second post.

 

Andy - LOL - no probs mate - I was just genuinely confused and wondered if I'd done my usual trick of missing a "not" or something out!

 

BEB

[Andrew Smith 5]

Great response from all on this thread thanks.

 

Might have just clicked- s the more control surfaces you are using the more drag is been created which may result in stalling the model when flying slower

 

It has cleared some confusion up for me, cant wait to get out and try some of the tips i  have learnt and not what to do,

Edited By Andrew Smith 5 on 09/01/2011 22:57:19

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Yeap, its partially that. But don't forget if you really sidesliping your also forcing the fuselage through the air partly sidewise - so that adds even more to the drag.

 

BEB

 

PS - Enjoy trying them - but gently and high at first eh? Rememebr these can come back and bite you!

Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 09/01/2011 23:04:11

[John Privett]

Andrew,  I flew fixed-wing for years and really only used the rudder on the ground and for stall turns.  I suspect the majority of "club flyers" are the same.

 

But a few years ago I started flying helis as well and now find I use the rudder far more on fixed-wing than I ever used to.  I even find myself "using" rudder on my glider.  It's an aileron and elevator only model - no rudder!

[Andy Harris]

@Martin.H

 

I'm assuming we're discussing as if the Eflite SU 26M (480 Motor) version was being flown.

 

I have direct experience of the Diamante 25e and I had a look around at the SU 26M videos on youtube.  The characteristics seem similar, they stall into a harrier which is very nice for an intermediate model:

 

 Here's the Eflite specs:

Wingspan:	43 in (1090mm)
Overall Length:	39 in (990mm)
Wing Area:	365 sq in (23.5 sq dm)
Flying Weight:	30–32 oz (850–910 g)
Motor Size:	Park 480
Radio:	5+ channels (required)
Servos:	4 sub-micro servos (required)
Trim Scheme Colors:	Lite Scale White (HANU973), Orange (HANU877), Pearl Purple (HANU847)
Prop Size:	APC 12x6E
Spinner Size:	1.75-inch diameter
Hardware Included:	Yes
Speed Control :	40-amp
Recommended Battery:	2100mAh 3S Li-Po
Approx. Flying Duration:	10 minutes
Approx. Assembly Time:	4–6 hours
Experience Level:	Intermediate
Is Assembly Required:	Yes

 

The Diamante was not really an out and out 3D model - Eflite suggest the SU 26 is "no holds barred" which may suggest that its a bit more lively when the wings are fully stalled.

 

We have various competitions in the season, for 'spot landing' I used to stall out the Addiction high above the runway then use the rudder to guide it to the spot.  Harrier landings were prohibited this year along with a cut motor at runway threshold to equalize the competition.

@John.P  - I would estimate that 50% of regular club sport pilots often have one or more flying surfaces stalled.  I don't think that scale pilots use stalled surfaces much - well, hmm, they do for stall turns.  I have a BH Mosquito which I wouldn't risk stalling, however it gets a thumb full of rudder for low passes in front of the flightline.  I was coached to do this so it 'presents' well. Scale flying relates to full size more.  However I only put in around an hour each year on the Mosquito - the older gentleman club members certainly remind me that there is a lot to remember in scale flying.