I need encouragement

[Geoff Smith 1]

Hiya all. as the title says I am in need of a lot of encouragement. It's been so long since I last built a model that I haven't taken into consideration my arthritic fingers and shaky hands. I have also forgotten how fragile balsa can be. I am struggling along with the wings at the moment and they are not looking good, they are straight with no warps but they look messy. Another problem, the solution to which is alluding me at the moment, is that my new lipo turned up from HK but it has different plugs on than my existing system and I really wanted to keep it the same so that I could transpose lipo's between models. Having had some success with soldering with my new iron I decided to cut off the wrong connector and replace it with a Deans plug. I must say here that whatever I tried I could not de-solder the plug off so I had to cut. What a mistake! I have never seen so many strands making up 1 wire, No matter what I tried I could not get enough heat to tin all the strands and it finished up in a right mess. I had an idea that if I bound the end of the wire with some copper wire and solder below that and then cut off the top, it worked. I decided to change my system to plugs and went on a 15 mile round trip to my LMS and bought some 4mm plugs, they are not big enough, I can't get the lipo wire anywhere near it. I need some help here 'cos I am getting very twitchy because I ain't as good as I used to be. Cheers my friends

Webbiteer No: 20 AKA. Geoff

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Geoff, we don't do "encouragement badly" on here - we only do it well

 

Building is a habit/skill thing. Yeap sure you will make mistakes. But as a wise man on here (not me!) once said "It only wood - what are worried about". And he's right. In the final analysis even the most complex model is only bits of wood glued together. If you make a bit of a sow's ear out of one bit, well cut another and try again. The skill will develop - it just takes practice.

 

Now you say the the wing is straight - well that's 50% of it. Is it structurally sound? If so that's the other 50% - you've got a perfectly satisfactory, functioning wing. Oh, it might not be as pretty as some other people's efforts - but well they've been at it longer. And you know what? In the end, when they're both covered in film, no one will be able to tell the difference!

 

On the soldering, have a look on You Tube - there are loads of soldering demonstration videos. If you look through them they will give you a feel for what you might be doing wrong. Basically there are only two mistakes you can make; the job isn't hot enough or it isn't clean enough. Nothing else can really go wrong. I would suggest looking at the videos, then some practice on off cuts of brass or some copper wire until you get your "hand in", then tackle those 4mm bullets on the lipo. What size lipo is it? Cos unless you have far too much solder on the wire, or have opened up all the strands - a 4mm bullet with cope with most wires from a lipo.

 

Chin up - you'll get there.

 

BEB

[Pat (rActive) Harbord]

Geoff, hang in there. The webbit is a knockabout type of plane so it needn't be perfect, straight and no warps sounds good to me. A scruffy well balanced, straight plane is still going to fly well.
Re the lipo wires, you really need a 50 watt+ iron, but sounds like you found a way around the tinning. What flux are you using? The wires should easily fit into 4mm gold connectors, I use 3.5mm and have no problem. The wire goes in the end not through the small hole on the side. Do be careful not to short the battery by only working on one wire at a time.

Take your time, refer to the build pics on here, put the kettle on. I reckon it will turn out okay in the end.

Keep calm and carry on

[Tim Mackey]

Yeh, you will be fine Geoff, as stated take your time and remember, if you only stick one bit of wood to another every day - one day it will be finished

I must stress the comment about being careful soldering up the lipo leads and connectors etc - you MUST not let the leads or connectors touch each other as they have tremendous power and it could cause a serious fire.

Ensure that the lead you are jnot working on at the time, is completely insulated and dont remove that insulation ( tape heatshrink etc ) until the first connector is in place and also insulated.

[Geoff Smith 1]

Posted by rActive on 04/04/2011 13:15:52:
Geoff, hang in there. The webbit is a knockabout type of plane so it needn't be perfect, straight and no warps sounds good to me. A scruffy well balanced, straight plane is still going to fly well.
Re the lipo wires, you really need a 50 watt+ iron, but sounds like you found a way around the tinning. What flux are you using? The wires should easily fit into 4mm gold connectors, I use 3.5mm and have no problem. The wire goes in the end not through the small hole on the side. Do be careful not to short the battery by only working on one wire at a time.

Take your time, refer to the build pics on here, put the kettle on. I reckon it will turn out okay in the end.

Keep calm and carry on

Thanks for this RA. I've got a 100w iron which should be good enough. I've now got one of the wires well tinned and no way is it gonna fit into a 4mm plug, the hole for the solder is far too small. I've ordered some 6mm connectors from GC so I'll see if they work. I'm using the flux which came with the soldering iron (Draper, trigger type) I don't know what is. The solder I was using came with the kit as well and it is ' lead free' I've got some old style solder which I suppose has got lead in so I'm using that instead. Cheers mate.

Geoff

 

PS. Tim and BEB. I cannot seem to reply to you in the normal manner so I hope you don't mind tagging this on the end of rActive's message. Thanks gentlemen for your support, it has been very frustrating for me to say the least. As you say it will be covered up, good job didn't  go for the transparent Solafilm. Cheers my friends.

Geoff 

 

 

Edited By Geoff Smith 1 on 04/04/2011 14:24:04

[Tim Mackey]

The instant heat trigger gun type irons are useless IMO - the tip is simply not big enough to hold heat. Also, be very careful not to mix lead with non-lead solder joints.

PS  I cant believe the wire on your battery is too large to fit a 4mm plug - I have used 6s 150A battery leads on 4mm before today ( but not recommended see PC9 disaster ) 

Edited By Tim Mackey - Administrator on 04/04/2011 14:29:30

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

I'm guessing that your iron is an instant heat type which Timbo will tell you doesn't have enough heat capacity. Oddly enough, the Weller Iron I have (Wattage unknown as all the labels have fallen off sometime in the 40+ years I've owned it) performs admirably on most tasks including 4mm connectors.

 

Anyway, I think the Wattages referred to here are for conventional irons with decent heat capacity (big tips)...

[Geoff Smith 1]

Posted by Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 04/04/2011 13:09:03:

Geoff, we don't do "encouragement badly" on here - we only do it well

 

Building is a habit/skill thing. Yeap sure you will make mistakes. But as a wise man on here (not me!) once said "It only wood - what are worried about". And he's right. In the final analysis even the most complex model is only bits of wood glued together. If you make a bit of a sow's ear out of one bit, well cut another and try again. The skill will develop - it just takes practice.

 

Now you say the the wing is straight - well that's 50% of it. Is it structurally sound? If so that's the other 50% - you've got a perfectly satisfactory, functioning wing. Oh, it might not be as pretty as some other people's efforts - but well they've been at it longer. And you know what? In the end, when they're both covered in film, no one will be able to tell the difference!

 

On the soldering, have a look on You Tube - there are loads of soldering demonstration videos. If you look through them they will give you a feel for what you might be doing wrong. Basically there are only two mistakes you can make; the job isn't hot enough or it isn't clean enough. Nothing else can really go wrong. I would suggest looking at the videos, then some practice on off cuts of brass or some copper wire until you get your "hand in", then tackle those 4mm bullets on the lipo. What size lipo is it? Cos unless you have far too much solder on the wire, or have opened up all the strands - a 4mm bullet with cope with most wires from a lipo.

 

Chin up - you'll get there.

 

BEB

Strewth now it's working. BEB please see message on my reply to rActive. That was the problem the strands have opened up and when I tried to offer the soldering iron to them they spread even more. As I said, binding the top with copper wire and soldering under that worked and I now have a reasonable finished end, still far to big for a 4mm plug. The lipo is a 2350 from HK. Hang on I'll scoot back and tell you which. It is a Rhino 2350mhz 3s 20c. The wires are definately thicker than the wires on my lipo which came from ArtTech. Cheers.

Geoff 

Edited By Geoff Smith 1 on 04/04/2011 14:35:34

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

I'm guessing that your iron is an instant heat type which Timbo will tell you doesn't have enough heat capacity

 

Told you so! He posted while I was doing some work...

 

But I still find mine more than adequate - I guess it's the constant heat replacement that does the trick.

Edited By Martin Harris on 04/04/2011 14:40:40

[Tim Mackey]

LOL- I guess that like most things these instant heat guns vary - mine is rated at 80 Watts, but the "tip" is really rather weedy bent flat wire, and just wont keep any appreciable heat once applied to the components.

Maybe your's has a bigger one Martin - ooh err missus.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

I'll have to have a good look when I get home and see if I can find a data plate - not sure how relevant measuring the "current in" would be with the various losses - but the tips are "standard" Weller replacements .

 

I keep expecting them to change the design but (other than having some dodgy plating and lastng a fraction of the time the old unplated copper ones did) they seem to soldier on decade after decade. Mine was a Christmas present when I was 13 or 14 and is a bit of a "Grandfather's Axe" having had various bits of casing etc.replaced 20 years or so ago from one picked up at a car boot saleafter years of being dropped and abused.

 

It must be the longest serving tool in my workshop so I won't hear a word said against it!

[fly boy3]

Hi Geoff you say its straight and sound, but looks messy, when it is covered and flying sweetly 200ft up It will not look messy. Cheers FB3 ,ps -heads up.

Edited By fly boy3 on 04/04/2011 15:07:27

[Tom Wright 2]

Hey Geoff Tell us about this Rino 2350 mhz ! battery as the others suggest the type of iron you have is not really suitable ,and it could also damage sensitive electronic components due to  electromagnetic induction.

 

TW2.

Edited By tom wright 2 on 04/04/2011 15:22:42

[leccyflyer]

Posted by Tim Mackey - Administrator on 04/04/2011 14:27:14:

The instant heat trigger gun type irons are useless IMO - the tip is simply not big enough to hold heat. Also, be very careful not to mix lead with non-lead solder joints.

PS I cant believe the wire on your battery is too large to fit a 4mm plug - I have used 6s 150A battery leads on 4mm before today ( but not recommended see PC9 disaster )

Edited By Tim Mackey - Administrator on 04/04/2011 14:29:30

Agreed about the instant trigger irons, which are well into chocolate fireguard territory.

 

As regards the wires there are some of the larger packs from GC and Hobbyking which have either 10 or 8 guage wire fitted, which won;t go in some of the 4mm gold connectors - the ones with a small hole, rather than a semicircular depression or larger hole in the rear collar of the connector.

 

Those wires tend to be fitted to the 4500 -5000mah pack, but they are seriously thick wires and often supplied with either much larger 4mm connectors than standard, or with 5.5mm connectors. I;'ve had both types supplied in the past couple of years.

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

I have a conventional Antex iron and a Weller "heat gun" type, They are both OK and you can do a decent job with either of them. But I do find that the "knack" is slightly different.

 

With the Antex it takes a while to heat up - which is a bit of a pain if you're only doing a couple of joints as it probably takes longer to come to heat than it does to make the joints temselves! But once its at heat it just stays there - mine is one of those with a themostat unit you can set the temp on.

 

The Weller is different. It comes to heat almost instantly, but it doesn't hold it. So when making a joint you have acquire the knack of sensing the iron temperature and pulsing the trigger to keep it at the temperature you want. Its not a good idea to just keep the trigger pulled all the time as it then gets too hot!

 

If you're using a gun Geoff then I think that's maybe controlling its temperature by pulsing the trigger is one extra complication you don't really need at this stage. Having said that I do know that some people with arthritis find the pistol grip of the gun easier to manipulate than the pen hold grip of an Antex for example.

 

Personally for fine work I much prefer the Antex, but for a quick zap joint the Weller is my prefered tool. Yer pays yer money etc.

 

BEB

Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 04/04/2011 16:15:13

[Geoff Smith 1]

Posted by leccyflyer on 04/04/2011 16:03:06:

Posted by Tim Mackey - Administrator on 04/04/2011 14:27:14:

The instant heat trigger gun type irons are useless IMO - the tip is simply not big enough to hold heat. Also, be very careful not to mix lead with non-lead solder joints.

PS I cant believe the wire on your battery is too large to fit a 4mm plug - I have used 6s 150A battery leads on 4mm before today ( but not recommended see PC9 disaster )

Edited By Tim Mackey - Administrator on 04/04/2011 14:29:30

Agreed about the instant trigger irons, which are well into chocolate fireguard territory.

 

As regards the wires there are some of the larger packs from GC and Hobbyking which have either 10 or 8 guage wire fitted, which won;t go in some of the 4mm gold connectors - the ones with a small hole, rather than a semicircular depression or larger hole in the rear collar of the connector.

 

Hiya Leccy. I'm not in the attic at the moment but I'll check later on but I'm sure I saw 12 gauge printed on the lipo wire. That's the one's I've got (small hole) Cheers mate.

 

Geoff

Those wires tend to be fitted to the 4500 -5000mah pack, but they are seriously thick wires and often supplied with either much larger 4mm connectors than standard, or with 5.5mm connectors. I;'ve had both types supplied in the past couple of years.

[Geoff Smith 1]

Posted by Geoff Smith 1 on 04/04/2011 16:29:42:

Posted by leccyflyer on 04/04/2011 16:03:06:

Posted by Tim Mackey - Administrator on 04/04/2011 14:27:14:

The instant heat trigger gun type irons are useless IMO - the tip is simply not big enough to hold heat. Also, be very careful not to mix lead with non-lead solder joints.

PS I cant believe the wire on your battery is too large to fit a 4mm plug - I have used 6s 150A battery leads on 4mm before today ( but not recommended see PC9 disaster )

Edited By Tim Mackey - Administrator on 04/04/2011 14:29:30

Agreed about the instant trigger irons, which are well into chocolate fireguard territory.

 

As regards the wires there are some of the larger packs from GC and Hobbyking which have either 10 or 8 guage wire fitted, which won;t go in some of the 4mm gold connectors - the ones with a small hole, rather than a semicircular depression or larger hole in the rear collar of the connector.

 

Hiya Leccy. I'm not in the attic at the moment but I'll check later on but I'm sure I saw 12 gauge printed on the lipo wire. That's the one's I've got (small hole) Cheers mate.

 

Geoff

Those wires tend to be fitted to the 4500 -5000mah pack, but they are seriously thick wires and often supplied with either much larger 4mm connectors than standard, or with 5.5mm connectors. I;'ve had both types supplied in the past couple of years.

Hiya Leccy. I've just checked and the wires are definately marked 12AWG, whatever that means. Cheers mate.

Geoff

[leccyflyer]

12AWG is a fairly thick-ish wire very suitable for 40-60amps and the "standard" wire that would have been fitted to medium sized batteries up to a couple of years ago. As capacities increased the size of the wire on those larger packs increased as well, s that it's not unusual to get much thicker 10AWG or even 8AWG wires on larger packs.

 

My own biggest packs have 10AWG wire, but my pal's packs inclue some with 8AWG wires, that he calls "pokers"!

 

My smaller capacity batteries - 1800mah and below, - typically have 14AWG wires.

[Tim Mackey]

12 AWG is approximately 2mm diameter, so I cant see why Geoff is struggling to get them into a typical 4mm bullet connector.

Geoff, you mentioned about making a bit of a hash of tinning everything - maybe you have artificially increased the diameter by applying too much solder?

[leccyflyer]

Posted by Tim Mackey - Administrator on 04/04/2011 18:44:07:

12 AWG is approximately 2mm diameter, so I cant see why Geoff is struggling to get them into a typical 4mm bullet connector.

Geoff, you mentioned about making a bit of a hash of tinning everything - maybe you have artificially increased the diameter by applying too much solder?

 

4mm bullet connectors are very variable in their internal dimensions and design. They go everywhere from connectors with a small hole to a large hole, or a semicircular cut out.

 

I've had 4mm connectors with very different diameter holes in the end, some tht were smaller than those in 3.5mm connectors. The small hole can be a tight squeeze with the wires that are presented on some packs.

 

In this case however Geoff posted earlier that he had spread the wires a little and they wouldn't fit. he's since bound them with some thinner copper wire and now they definitely won;t fit.

 

Perhaps cutting them back a few mm and starting again would be an option?

[Big Bandit]

Hi Geoff,

 

Sorry to hear your having trouble, but seriously don't worry about the Webbitt, as others have said when it's covered it'll look fine.

 

As for soldering irons, I've brought a few in the last 5 years including temperature controlled ones and they have all be next to use less apart form a cheapo one from Aldi which is very reliable but it's only 25 watts. When I came to solder the undercart for the Webbitt My 100 Watt iron went US so I had to resort to the 25 watt one to solder 12 SWG to 16 SWG bound with copper wire. It took some time to get enough heat into the wire to get the solder to flow, but it worked in the end. Just keep the iron on the wire and try "wetting the tip" until it melts the solder which then helps to conduct the heat into the wire, and when it's hot enough wick the solder into the wire. Good flux helps here but beware of the plumbers flux if you solder electrical cable, as it tends to be corrosive. I think Maplins do an electrical flux quite cheaply. As for buying irons, ANTEX have always been good for me and my old ones lasted for better than 20 years, but they don't seem to be as good as they used to be.

 

For heavy gauge silicone cable I strip the cable just a bit more than I need then twist the wires quite tightly, then tin it, and trim to length, into the end of the bullet connector and solder up.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Chris.

[Geoff Smith 1]

Posted by Big Bandit on 04/04/2011 19:39:31:

Hi Geoff,

 

Sorry to hear your having trouble, but seriously don't worry about the Webbitt, as others have said when it's covered it'll look fine.

 

As for soldering irons, I've brought a few in the last 5 years including temperature controlled ones and they have all be next to use less apart form a cheapo one from Aldi which is very reliable but it's only 25 watts. When I came to solder the undercart for the Webbitt My 100 Watt iron went US so I had to resort to the 25 watt one to solder 12 SWG to 16 SWG bound with copper wire. It took some time to get enough heat into the wire to get the solder to flow, but it worked in the end. Just keep the iron on the wire and try "wetting the tip" until it melts the solder which then helps to conduct the heat into the wire, and when it's hot enough wick the solder into the wire. Good flux helps here but beware of the plumbers flux if you solder electrical cable, as it tends to be corrosive. I think Maplins do an electrical flux quite cheaply. As for buying irons, ANTEX have always been good for me and my old ones lasted for better than 20 years, but they don't seem to be as good as they used to be.

 

For heavy gauge silicone cable I strip the cable just a bit more than I need then twist the wires quite tightly, then tin it, and trim to length, into the end of the bullet connector and solder up.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Chris.

Many thanks for this Chris. Trouble with this wire is that it appears to be woven, a bit like coax sheilding, it will not twist, it just seperates into a jumbled mess. Regarding the iron, I dug out my old iron, I have no idea what wattage it is but it performed a lot better than the Draper. On the wire I'm trying to fit into a 4mm connector it says 12 AWG. Does this mean 12 gauge? if so Leccy says it will not fit into a 4mm connector. I am still at a loss, Tim says it should fit but I've looked at it again and there is no way. Ah well onward ever onward. Cheers mate.

Geoff

[Geoff Smith 1]

Posted by tom wright 2 on 04/04/2011 15:08:34:

Hey Geoff Tell us about this Rino 2350 mhz ! battery as the others suggest the type of iron you have is not really suitable ,and it could also damage sensitive electronic components due to electromagnetic induction.

 

TW2.

Edited By tom wright 2 on 04/04/2011 15:22:42

Yeh ok Tom, honestly mate I don't know me deriere from me elbow at the moment. It should of course be 2350mAh. Cheers

 

Geoff

[Geoff Smith 1]

Posted by leccyflyer on 04/04/2011 18:51:11:

Posted by Tim Mackey - Administrator on 04/04/2011 18:44:07:

12 AWG is approximately 2mm diameter, so I cant see why Geoff is struggling to get them into a typical 4mm bullet connector.

Geoff, you mentioned about making a bit of a hash of tinning everything - maybe you have artificially increased the diameter by applying too much solder?

 

4mm bullet connectors are very variable in their internal dimensions and design. They go everywhere from connectors with a small hole to a large hole, or a semicircular cut out.

 

I've had 4mm connectors with very different diameter holes in the end, some tht were smaller than those in 3.5mm connectors. The small hole can be a tight squeeze with the wires that are presented on some packs.

 

In this case however Geoff posted earlier that he had spread the wires a little and they wouldn't fit. he's since bound them with some thinner copper wire and now they definitely won;t fit.

 

Perhaps cutting them back a few mm and starting again would be an option?

Been there done that. The copper wire I bound them with was only temporary whilst I soldered below it and then cut it off when the solder had set. Cheers mate

Geoff

[leccyflyer]

Geoff

 

Tim is correct - 12 gauge wire should fit okay into most 4mm connectors, if done correctly, but if you've already spread the ends of the wire you might have trouble.

 

If you start from scratch with a freshly stripped section about 5-6mm long then you should be okay. Bear in mind that if you are stripping the wire, then giving it a twist with your fingers you might be getting finger grease on there. A little smear of a non-corrosive flux would help.

 

If you don't want to start from scratch and you have a big blob of solder on the wires there is another way, but it's a bit of a botch.

 

You can use a set of side cutters to trim that blob into a neat cylinder of solder and wire that will fit in the connector. When you have done that tin the connector fill the hole with molten solder, apply the iron to the wire and connector simultaneously and as the solder melts on the wire, push it gently home. You'l lose a small amount of contact area on the trimmed wire, but if you make sure you get a good joint it'll be close enough for jazz. Give it a good tug afterwards to ensure a good joint.

 

Oh and be sure to do the wires one at a time, with the other safely secured to the lipo with a rubber band or similar so that you can;t possibly get a short out.