FMS Axis Warplanes.

[Piper Cub]

Im really taken with these 'foamies' now. Must admit, I was a bit of a 'snob' when foamies first came on the scene but, they are now coming on leaps and bounds.

 

The panel lines are crisp, they are a lot stronger now they have carbon spars in the wing and becoming a realistic size instead of the tiny, ungainly things when they first appeared.

 

Now, FMS amongst others, are really cranking up the standard with these warbirds. The Messerschmitt and soon to be released zero look very scale in outline, slow retracts and functions.

 

But, they are also well, were, the 'enemy'.

 

The messerschmitt is one Im tempted with after the P51 but it represents the nazi war machine. The zero is another good one especially with the slow flaps etc.

 

I guess some members of the public may not be too thrilled with that and a model in full nazi or imperial japanese insignia buzzing around the sky.

 

Anyone come across opposition to flying such a model? We all like favourable comments about our kit but the last thing I want is to get earache from people asking why Im flying 'that thing' and not the spifire!

 

Thoughts?

[Tim Mackey]

I've never actually experienced that sort of bias - although I also prefer the allied aircraft myself.

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

No, I know several people who fly Me109's, Fw190's etc and I don't think they have ever had any adverse comment.

 

One thing that is interesting is that I assume FMS use slightly different decaling in different countries - in Germany for instance it is illegal to display the Swastika in a public place.

 

BEB

[buster prop]

I've got a GWS '109 (complete with crosses and swastikas) and fly it often. If anyone made a comment to me I'd first remind them that WW2 ended 66 years ago then I'd point to a clubmate who has the Parkzone 109 and mention someone else I know who has a FW190. I'm sure it doesn't make us Nazi sympathisers! I take it then that flying a scale Argentinian Pucara or a Etandard would be a no-no as well, where would it end? I thought model flying was a politics free zone. I noticed that the swastikas on the decal sheet for my '109 were in 2 seperate pieces, maybe that's how GWS get around any ban.

[David Ashby - Moderator]

Quite right BP, model flyers look at the plane in these situations, the aeroplane itself, it's inherent beauty and/or technical prowess not the idealology perhaps behind the use of the full-size machine. People I speak to are always pleased not to be seeing 'yet another Spitfire' anyhow. 

 

 

 

 

Edited By David Ashby - RCME Administrator on 18/07/2011 08:30:50

[Phil Claridge]

i recently took a load of planes to a bootsale, i had an old me 109 fuselage with the wrong wings for it. at least a dozen buyers wanted it if i could find the right wings for it as i was doing another boot sale the next day. i did not have the right wings but a bloke bought it anyway to hang on the wall of his garage. i also had a fw 190 airframe complete with wings and cowl going for a tenner but not a sniff of interest on that one. there was no comment on there being german at all

[leccyflyer]

Posted by Piper Cub on 17/07/2011 16:08:51:

Im really taken with these 'foamies' now. Must admit, I was a bit of a 'snob' when foamies first came on the scene but, they are now coming on leaps and bounds.

 

The panel lines are crisp, they are a lot stronger now they have carbon spars in the wing and becoming a realistic size instead of the tiny, ungainly things when they first appeared.

 

Now, FMS amongst others, are really cranking up the standard with these warbirds. The Messerschmitt and soon to be released zero look very scale in outline, slow retracts and functions.

 

But, they are also well, were, the 'enemy'.

 

The messerschmitt is one Im tempted with after the P51 but it represents the nazi war machine. The zero is another good one especially with the slow flaps etc.

 

I guess some members of the public may not be too thrilled with that and a model in full nazi or imperial japanese insignia buzzing around the sky.

 

Anyone come across opposition to flying such a model? We all like favourable comments about our kit but the last thing I want is to get earache from people asking why Im flying 'that thing' and not the spifire!

 

Thoughts?

Well, first of all I have to say that model aeroplane enthusiasts do tend to have a slightly different perspective on these things, so you might not encounter any opposition at all. It isn't them that you would need to be worried about. It is the perception of the general public that you have to deal with if you come into contact with them.

 

I've just had one encounter myself, at an indoor fly-in, and it was a case of mistaken identity, but it did make me think.

 

A young French guy mistook the Maltese Crosses on the wings of my Pico Stik for swastikas and kicked off a bit. I was at pains to explain the situation, that they were not swastikas, nothing to do with the nazis but it doing so it did make me think of why on earth I'd display even Maltese Crosses on a non-scale model, just because they were supplied with the kit.

 

The situation with the swastika is a bit different and an individual choice to make. I like modelling axis aeroplanes an have quite a few, but it was the RAF fighters that I took to a recent static display, for the first one at least. I took my Hs129, complete with swastika on the tail, to the second display and it didn;t generate any negative comment at all. It's best to have some form of answer ready, just in case, but be aware that the usual modeller's explanation that it's necessary on a scale model might not be received in the same way with non-modellers.

 

Flying a model with Axis markings is one thing, but there are some examples of modellers who actually take it further than that. Their internet IDs and avatars have an Axis theme and they might collect memorabilia. I had a rather disturbing discussion with one chap who pictured his GWS BF109 on a dummy panel that he'd created, bearing the autographs of Luftwaffe aces that he was boasting had a cumulative total of 1600+ kills.

 

To me that had crossed a line and was celebrating something that shouldn't be celebrated. I admit that I would struggle to define exactly where that line lay, but I know when it's been crossed. Owning and displaying Hitler Youth daggers alongside a foamy Bf109 is over that line.

[leccyflyer]

Posted by Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 17/07/2011 18:28:56:

No, I know several people who fly Me109's, Fw190's etc and I don't think they have ever had any adverse comment.

 

One thing that is interesting is that I assume FMS use slightly different decaling in different countries - in Germany for instance it is illegal to display the Swastika in a public place.

 

BEB

GWS have apparently been asked to remove the swastika from their kits in Germany, by their German agents.

 

 

By German agents I mean sales agents, not people with shortwave radios hidden n violin cases.

[Ben B]

Assuming one wanted to avoid anything that could possibly be implied as having a "Nazi" past how far would you go? The Grunau Baby is a popular glider but was one of the main gliders used in the two-fingers-to-the-no-airforce rule of Versailles and used to train up an airforce in Austria and Germany in the early to mid 1930s. As David said, when we fly "axis" planes we're saying the planes are nice, not the ideology of the people who flew them.

 

At some point people have to forgive and forget. After all, if we wanted to be really pedantic we shouldn't have celebrated man walking on the moon because the technology was based on V2 rocket technology designed firmly and squarely for killing people!

[James40]

It's history, it happened, removing a Swastika isn't going to change any of that.

 

The origins are actually from ancient India if you look into it's history, just because it was adopted by the Nazi party as the state flag shouldn't really be a reason to errase it from history.

 

I do like the Axis warplanes, they seem almost a little more agricultural than the glamorous P-51 and Spitfire but that's what I like about them.

Edited By James40 on 19/07/2011 11:38:02

Edited By James40 on 19/07/2011 11:38:33

[Tony Smith 7]

Posted by James40 on 19/07/2011 11:37:30:

It's history, it happened, removing a Swastika isn't going to change any of that.

 

As I understand it, it is illegal to display the swastika in Germany, hence their requirement stated above. There was something in the news recently about a plantation of trees in Germany, that had the design picked out in the planting and only recently growing big enough to be visible.

 

By the way, the Hohner "Double Ray" button accordion, very popular in Ireland but made in Germany, was made with a swastika marking until relatively recently, maybe into the '60s or '70s.

[Eck]

It's a difficult line to draw - Mercedes and BMW are two of the most prestigious car brands in this country - but they made the engines for the Luftwaffe. Most of the traffic lights in this country are made and maintained by Siemens, who had a factory in Auschwitz, manned by slave labour, making submarine parts. Do we have sanctions against them? no.

So why start with toy aeroplanes that are made in the far East?

[James40]

It beggers belief, the Germans banning a 3000 year old symbol isn't going to change anything, you can't delete history, the symbol has been here long before the Nazi's used it, it's original meaning was to represent life, good luck and power (probably why the Nazi's adopted it.

 

The word "swastika" comes from the Sanskrit svastika - "su" meaning "good," "asti" meaning "to be," and "ka" as a suffix.

 

 

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

James - I know what you are saying and I see your point. But I think you have to bear in mind there are big issues here. The Allied de-Nazification programme that ran post war identified a real threat of small elements still harbouring pro-Nazi views. Also whatever the worthy origins of such a symbol that fact reminds that for many - including people in Germany - this symbol will always be identified with a very dark and difficult period in their past. The German government, for its own reasons and for reasons of distancing itself from the past, banned the display of swastika in public places. One reason being to effectively deny its use to neo-Nazi groups.

 

We might find this strange, but unless you are German and have those events as part of your nation's history I think it is difficult to stand in judgement.

 

The law can be given excemptions. For example during the making of the film about von Staffenburg the makers did get permission to decorate the square in front of the Bundestag with Swastika flags to create an outdoor shot for the film.

 

BEB

[leccyflyer]

Posted by Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 19/07/2011 12:41:22:

James - I know what you are saying and I see your point. But I think you have to bear in mind there are big issues here. The Allied de-Nazification programme that ran post war identified a real threat of small elements still harbouring pro-Nazi views. Also whatever the worthy origins of such a symbol that fact reminds that for many - including people in Germany - this symbol will always be identified with a very dark and difficult period in their past. The German government, for its own reasons and for reasons of distancing itself from the past, banned the display of swastika in public places. One reason being to effectively deny its use to neo-Nazi groups.

 

We might find this strange, but unless you are German and have those events as part of your nation's history I think it is difficult to stand in judgement.

 

The law can be given excemptions. For example during the making of the film about von Staffenburg the makers did get permission to decorate the square in front of the Bundestag with Swastika flags to create an outdoor shot for the film.

 

BEB

Good post.

 

The old tired argument that the swastika was an ancient Indian symbol, or is used on Finnish aeroplanes or any of the other irrelevant side issues do not take away from the main point. In the 20th and 21st Century the swastika is irrevocably linked to the Nazis.

 

In amongst all the discussions about the swastika in modelling - and there have been many - there are still examples, such as those I have described, where the modeller goes a little bit further than just having an accurate representation of a national marking on a scale model.

 

I just found my post, almost ten years ago exactly, describing my one encounter with a member of the public upset at the markings on a model aeroplane. Here is is, from 2001.

A new Twist on the swastika - July 2001 

Edited By leccyflyer on 19/07/2011 13:15:15

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Your 2001 post raises an interesting point leccy. We have all been discussing the presence of the swastika on a scale model - as a matter of scale accuracy. And I think most of us have no problem with that - and I don't think the public does either.

 

The question arises, would we be as unconcerned if it was on a freelance model which had no relationship to WWII? I suspect not!

 

BEB

[Ben B]

Isn't the Nazi Swastika in the opposite direction to the ancient Indian symbol or is that urban myth?

[leccyflyer]

Posted by Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 19/07/2011 13:51:54:

Your 2001 post raises an interesting point leccy. We have all been discussing the presence of the swastika on a scale model - as a matter of scale accuracy. And I think most of us have no problem with that - and I don't think the public does either.

 

The question arises, would we be as unconcerned if it was on a freelance model which had no relationship to WWII? I suspect not!

 

BEB

That was the point I was making bck then. It made me re-examine the issue of national markings - in particular the swastika- on non-scale models.

 

At the classic car rally that we had a static display at last weekend, I asked a Triumph Spitfire owner if I could get a picture of my Spitfire with his Spitfire. he was delighted to oblige. In chatting about his car I said if I had one, I'd like to have it painted in dark green and dark earth, with a roundel on the bonnet and one on each door. Plus a little line of swastikas just on the op of the driver's door. We later concluded it would be more fun to have a little line of BMW symbols.

 

 

Edited By leccyflyer on 19/07/2011 14:15:53

[James40]

BEB, I understand why they've done it, but it just seems a very European way of dealing with it.

Not that long ago the British Empire wasn't exactly smelling of roses either but we didn't ban the Union Flag to try and hide our bloody past (some of which is still battling on to this day in the Middle East and Africa).

 

Anyway, this has gone waaaay off topic now so I'll post no more on that subject, however on a subject of scale and building a scale Axis model, I think it's only right that it be fully scale and wear the correct markings of it's era.