Super 60 build, Big Bandit

[Big Bandit]

Hi John,

 

I've just fuel proofed the inside of the engine and tank bay, I normally like to use Flair satin spray fuel proofer and won't do that until all of the trims on. Flairs stuff is polyurethane based and has always worked well for me, but the LMS doesn't stock it at the moment so I'm going to have to search for it.

 

I've got some of the Spectra stuff that I brought in Leeds just before Christmas, but I haven't used that yet and TBH, I'll wait until I have something I'm not too bothered about to use it on if ever.

 

Reading the safety info on the back of the can it says;

 

Contains Dimthyl ether, (not heard of that one before dethyl, ethyl or methyl yes but not Dimthyl) .

Keep out of reach of children and may cause harm to an unborn child .

Do not breath vapor / spray .

If contact with eyes, skin or mouth, rinse immediately with plenty of water and seek medical advise .

This product contains lead and therefore should not be sprayed on parts that children are able to suck or chew on .

Harmful to the environment, this material should be disposed of as hazardous waste .

 

It'll be good stuff then, will it flippin eck as like, might as well use asbestos to charge me lipo's on or for a soldering mat at least that stuff will take about 15 to 60 years to kill me. Next they'll be flogging model balance weights from spent Uranium, a quid for as much as you can carry from Sellafield.

 

I'll stick to the Flair stuff, but take on board what you say about letting the dope dry fully before applying other finishes and I like the idea of sniffing it for a week just to make sure it's dry.

 

Cheers,

 

Chris.

Edited By Big Bandit on 08/01/2012 19:41:56

[Big Bandit]

Only a bit done on the Super 60 today, first of all it was clean up any edges that I wasn't happy with, and set up the elevator, I've hidden the elevator horn as much as I can, and it aint bad.

 

And set up using the servo tester to give a reasonable amount of throw, I need to check what it says in the instructions (haven't looked at them yet) but I recon 15 to 20 degrees should be OK.

 

I'll get the bench cleaned down ready to start the wings during the week, and in the mean time I'll be looking for some suitable trim.

 

Cheers,

 

Chris.

[Martyn K]

Hi Chris

 

Why don't you apply colour etc by doping on some lightweight tissue - modelspan or pseudo jap? Nice and simple and in keeping with the period.

 

Martyn

[Big Bandit]

Hi Martyn,

 

I think going down the tissue route is the easiest of the three alternatives, I just need to get some suitable stuff, Jap, and Osaki, I already have for my free flight activities and looking through the box, some acid free stuff from the craft shop looks thicker and has a better colour density. I think next week will be starting the wings whilst looking for something I like, I'll be out and about anyway during the day at work.

 

There's an old FF glider in the shed,The wings are tissue covered and have a few holes in them so I'll try a few alternatives on those just to see what goes on the best.

 

Cheers,

 

Chris.

Edited By Big Bandit on 09/01/2012 01:16:51

[Steve Hargreaves - Moderator]

Posted by Big Bandit on 08/01/2012 06:53:32:

........ proper BA spanners help for this job.

 

 

Heaven.......

 

Another vote for Solarlac from me too.....good stuff & a great range of colours.....

 

On the nylon U/C bolts then our friends at Modelfixings can sort you out here or alternatively I buy mine from here cos they are cheaper & local to me & sell them in big bags......I find a bag of 50 last me quite a while even with my dodgy landings......sometimes I can even last a whole season on one bag......

 

I think you've used 3 fixing points for your U/C so I would say M5 would be adequate for such a light model....I use 2 x M5 in my Wildcard which weights about 5lbs from memory & these work well only snapping when I land in the rough stuff or run off the end of the runway.....both very rare occurrances you understand.....ahem...!!

 

PM me your address Chris & I'll pop a handul in the post for ya.....I would send you some M5 Tee nuts too but I checked last night & I'm fresh out of them!!! Again Modelfixings will sort you out.....

 

[Bob Cotsford]

As I understand it, Spectra is Flair Spektrum paint under the paint manufacturers own badge.

Either way, the last i got was from the Flair offices in Warwick. There was one batch of the Cub Yellow sprays that just would not set until I sprayed over it with gloss clear, I suspect the drier had been left out of the mix! All the cans I had a problem with were marked with the same batch number.

Anyway, the lesson is - don't start reading the back of cans, you'll scare yourself silly.

Fighteraces do a water based paint system that's supposed to be fuel proof, though I've not tried it myself.

[Big Bandit]

Posted by Steve Hargreaves on 09/01/2012 09:15:39:

Posted by Big Bandit on 08/01/2012 06:53:32:

 

........ proper BA spanners help for this job.

 

 

Heaven.......

 

Another vote for Solarlac from me too.....good stuff & a great range of colours.....

 

On the nylon U/C bolts then our friends at Modelfixings can sort you out here or alternatively I buy mine from here cos they are cheaper & local to me & sell them in big bags......I find a bag of 50 last me quite a while even with my dodgy landings......sometimes I can even last a whole season on one bag......

 

I think you've used 3 fixing points for your U/C so I would say M5 would be adequate for such a light model....I use 2 x M5 in my Wildcard which weights about 5lbs from memory & these work well only snapping when I land in the rough stuff or run off the end of the runway.....both very rare occurrances you understand.....ahem...!!

 

PM me your address Chris & I'll pop a handul in the post for ya.....I would send you some M5 Tee nuts too but I checked last night & I'm fresh out of them!!! Again Modelfixings will sort you out.....

 

Hi Steve,

 

I've not long been in from work, but I have had a look at the Model fixings site. They really do some good stuff, so from what you recommend I'll stick an order in later. As well as the tee nuts I like the threaded blind nuts, Used the same sort of thing in plasterboard. I also do like the nylon thumb bolts a lot, and at the prices they are charging, I'll stick a big order in, thanks for the offer mate, but as I'm ordering I'll get at least enough to last me out at those prices.

 

Know what you mean about landing on rough ground though, as of late I've taken to urban guerrilla flying, you know the sort of thing, turn up a quick sortie with the war birds, dog fight the seagulls and disappear as swiftly as we arrived, and before they know whats hit em. A swift half down the pub in the village, just adds that extra bit of spice to the whole flying experience, and at my age it's about all the excitement I can stand in one day LOL.

 

There's some reclaimed land in the next village that used to be a rubbish tip, they have a leisure centre at one end, and the local band practice hut. the ground is so uneven in area's that have sunk over the years at times of heavy rain ponds appear over night.

 

My old T28 had it's nose wheel wrenched off one day due to me making a total dog of a landing, so rather than faf about, I took the main legs off as well, and just hand launched the thing. I did find that if I tried to land fast at the edge of one of the sunken area's I could bounce off and do touch and goes without an undercart, it's one of my party tricks .

 

I'll let you know how I get on with the nut's and bolts.

 

Cheers,

 

Chris.

[Martyn K]

IHi Chris

 

I have got Jap and Modelspan in a range of colours, if you need some I can let you have a couple of sheets which should be more than sufficient for trim.

 

Regards

 

Martyn

[Big Bandit]

Hi Martyn,

 

Thanks for the offer, I'm OK for Jap, but coloured modelspan is a right pain to find around here, is there anywhere that you know that sell it . I did notice that Sherwoods in Leeds had some heavy weight in when I was last there in December, but at that time I was looking for white nylon. I'll ask the daughter to drop in and see if they have any left, but in the mean time I need to stock up with the stuff.

 

I did get some acid free stuff today from the craft shop which looks god but nothing like proper modelspan, could be OK for trim though.

 

Cheers,

 

Chris.

[Andy Green]

The last time I bought some was from channel4models, but that was ages ago, but might be worth a phone call.

Andy

[Big Bandit]

Hi Andy,

 

No joy there, they've stopped stocking it, and today's been good and bad in equal measures. First off I've been to Steve's models in Ashby, no coloured model span, but I did get some goodies including Solarlac and Flair Spectra paint.

 

Finally got down the shed and tried the tissue route, and that turned out to be a complete disaster, looked good on the old glider wing, but the tissue is only good for small trimming bit's. I'd only done the cowl, so that was sanded off as far as I could. Anther coat of dope recovered the situation. so while that dried I started the wings.

 

First off the ribs from the kit don't match the drawing exactly. The trailing edge is a couple of millimeters out. So I've referenced everything from the front spar on both panels.

 

Secondly the comments previously stated are held as true by the flimsy nature of the front spar braces. My remedy for the job is based on an idea I've had from Allan Dorells (windy aint it) build and utilizes a 1/4" ply tongue built in to the center section, and boxes built into each outer wing panel. The spars will be from 1/4" sq spruce rather than balsa and framed with a full depth 1/16 Ply brace.

 

The center section ribs will be changed from 1/16" balsa to 1/8 lite ply, and the trailing edge sheet will be from 1/8 balsa allowing cap strips to be used on all wing ribs top and bottom, and the leading edge will be from a 1/8 balsa false LE tied in with the LE sheeting, then finished with a true 1/8" balsa LE while still maintaining LE sheeting and spar webs.

 

Overall a significant increase in the robustness and flexibility of the structure whilst maintaining a minimal weight increase.

 

The job so far.

 

 

A few new ribs will be required for the centre section from 1/8 lite ply Above, outer panel ribs as standard below.

 

And finally a mate rang me to say that tomorrow is going to be better for flying, so the gears on charge, and guess what I'm ringing out tomorrow afternoon .

 

More tomorrow, cheers,

 

Chris.

 

 

Edited By Big Bandit on 12/01/2012 20:47:31

[Andy Green]

I'll be covering mine with Antique Profilm, I know I know pipe down at the back.

 

Wings are done and seem quite rigid, Servos in just the ailerons to do.

 

Andy

[Big Bandit]

Hi Andy,

 

I've been following your build with interest, some times I wish I'd used an iron on covering but I wanted to stay as close as I could to the original build. I think I'll stay with litespan for the Matador, and I'm still sticking to the 3 channel wing, nylon covered on the Super 60.

 

Some changes I feel are necessary in the interest of safety, particularly the use of spar braces and the supplied 1/4 x 1/16 ply braces are only any use for free flight, in my opinion.

 

I may be wrong and would be happy to accept any criticism for building belt and braces style, but a model that may fold it's wings isn't my idea of a safe model. Further I'm glad that someone has highlighted the issue before I committed the information that some one else may want to follow.

 

So as it were onwards and upwards;

 

Firstly I've cut some more substantial 1/8" lite ply ribs for the first two bays on the outer panels. Notice the 1/4" template and the original 1/16 x 1/4" braces. Also for the eagle eyed notice the un-deliberate mistake at the trailing edge.

 

 

Using the 1st template mark off the leading edge with relation to the main spars, all other ribs will take this exact form.

 

Then weight of the original balsa ribs 20 grams.

 

Compared with the lite ply ribs. 60 grams or 2. something ounces, considering they may not all be used, the weight penalty is negligible compared with the risk of loosing the whole model. And it's still within acceptable limits.

 

 

Use the new liteply rib the trim up the original balsa ribs to ensure the rib profile matches the original.

Looking good so far. Use the bottom two spars to ensure proper alignment.

 

Back in a bit.

 

Cheers,

 

Chris.

 

Edited By Big Bandit on 14/01/2012 19:30:22

[Big Bandit]

To follow on.

 

Glue up all ribs, to the spars and trailing edge, but split the first two lite ply ribs the accommodate the tongue boxes. (1/16 ply glued to the spruce main spars), the plastic units are Slec braces to ensure the ribs are at 90 degrees to the horizontal and are worth every penny, just wish I'd have brought more at the Na'ts last year.

 

Glue up the front riblets after gluing up the front 1/16 ply closing to the tongue box and add full depth gussets from 1/2" triangular stock. When the panel is lifted from the board the box will be wrapped in nylon soaked in epoxy.

 

Add the upper trailing edge and 1/8" false Leading edge, I'm not inclined to use the 1/4" LE turned on edge, the reason being that in the event of an unplanned arrival the LE forms a wedge and is liable to split the ribs, it's much easier to splice in a new section of LE than replace a number of ribs .

 

I've glued the standard ribs after trimming to the other wing panel.

 

So that's it for today as it's getting cold and it took an hour this morning to get the temperature from -5.2 to 2 degrees C in the shed, and now it's down to 3 degrees so I'm off to somewhere warm.

 

Complete the other tongue box tomorrow along with the top main spar, trailing edge, and start on the centre section of the wing.

 

Cheers,

 

Chris.

[Lee Damms]

Hi Chris, just been catching up on your build, re undercarriage and wing fixings, I used to use nylon bolts but found the polyprope ones sold by slec and no doubt others have saved my wing/undercarriage mountings more than once they are designed to snap unlike nylon which just bend . The 60's comming on great but can't you go a little slower you're showing us all up.

 

Lee

[Big Bandit]

Hi Lee,

 

LOL, I've been at work this week and went flying yesterday, so I thought I was slacking off a bit too much . I must admit to making the mistake of trimming too much off the upper trailing edge recess on the liteply ribs, this morning but couldn't be bothered to cut another set of ribs so I've trimmed the rest of the ribs to match . I'll as a result I have a stronger TE than usual, but that can't be a bad thing.

 

After yesterdays flying session, Ive left my lipo bag in the back of my mates van so I can't sneak out for another flying session unless he wants to go flying again tomorrow. I might just put a cap cam together from Tim's idea and video the Sharkface maiden , I'll have to sort out how to set it up on U tube, but I'll post a vid when I've edited it.

 

Cheers,

 

Chris.

[Andy Green]

Hi Chris

 

I you go back through my build photos (on page 1) You will see my solution to the centre spar. I use a 1/16 real ply full depth wing joiner, and the standard 1/4 spar ones everywhere else.

 

Andy

[Big Bandit]

Hi Andy, yes the full depth spar joiner is a must as far as I can see, one solution that I thought about was to use wing boxes and build a 1/4" ply tongue into the centre section. for me it will solve two problems, firstly the strengthening the wing joining system, and secondly building space which I'm running out of fast. Electric powered models I can keep in the house, diesel and glow are a no no.

 

Come the spring when I can re-roof the garage with a pitched roof the storage and building space problems will be solved, as well as having a building shed and garage with the main workshop tools in and working between the two. So plug in outer panels solves problem two.

 

More done today, I must admit that the stuff I did yesterday, when I looked at it in the shed this morning while putting the heater on, was not what I would normally be happy with and rather than spend time trying to recover them. It's in the bin and build another two panels.

 

First pin the leading edge 1/16" bottom sheeting to the board, along with the 1/8" lower trailing edge and bottom 1/4" x 1/16" cap strips. I've cut new wing tips as well from 3/16" balsa rather than 1/4".

 

 

Cut a rib template from 1/16" ply, on this one I've only cut out the spars and lower 1/16" trailing edge cut out.

 

 

On the template, I stick carbide paer to one side to stop it slipping about while cutting ribs and use two pins for location. these are the inner two lite ply ribs.

 

Pin out the two bottom spars over the bottom cap strips, glue up the tips to the spars then add the ribs, all cut from 1/16" balsa apart from the last two inner ribs. Pack up the front of the leading edge sheet to meet the curve of the front of the ribs.

 

For the two inner ribs cut through the front spar slots and trim up to accommodate the 1/32 ply facings for the spar box.

 

Glue up the 1/32" ply to the main spars thus forming the spar box. and glue the rear ribs to the lower second spar and trailing edge. The the front riblets.

 

Using full depth triangle stock, brace the first three ribs to the spar box.

 

 

False leading edge fitted after sanding a bevel to match the bottom sheet, and tapper towards the tip. Just some light sanding and add the true leading edge, and wrap the spar boxes in nylon using 30 minute epoxy,then all upper sheeting, LE centre section and TE.

 

 

As for these they are already in the bin.

 

I'm at work from tomorrow so it'll be near the end of the week before I can get more done.

 

Cheers,

 

Chris.

 

Edited By Big Bandit on 15/01/2012 17:19:57

[Big Bandit]

Morning All,

 

I managed to get some shed time yesterday and after last weeks fowl up with the first set of wing panels, I've taken my time to ensure there's no more problems caused by bad workmanship or being too lazy to cut new ribs. In saying that I'm back to where I was last week so it's not that bad. So removing the first panel from the board, a trim up of the false leading edge and trailing edge ribs to accept the upper trailing edge is the first job

 

Trimmed up the wing tip as well then added the top trailing edge and spar webs. I'm sure someone will notice that they are on the opposite side to the ones shown on the plan, this is intentional so the when I add the the front LE sheeting I have the spars to clamp the rear edge of the sheeting too. The paper clips shown are worth their weight when it comes to jobs like this 99p for a tub full from ASDA stationary dept. Also notice the scraps of 1/16 balsa to stop the clips marking the TE sheeting.

 

 

 

Another little job is to wrap the spar boxes rather than nylon I've used more boot thread and epoxy, it stops the box "bursting" in the event of an up-planed heavy arrival. In the past I remember building wing boxes like these and they are very durable. When the front LE sheet is added they won't be seen anyway.

 

A better view of the structure, just waiting for the LE top sheeting, inboard sheeting, and upper cap strips.

 

And the last bit for this session, bottom inboard sheeting added ready to be trimmed, and while that dries, the second wing panel wing ribs cut, and glued up ready for the same treatment as above today.

Cheers for now,

 

Chris.

 

Edited By Big Bandit on 20/01/2012 08:23:58

[Anthony Billings]

Looking good Chris.

[Jimbo565]

Thats classic Peter Miller wing construction,works a treat and its looking good.

 

No doubt thats due the famous NE lube oil.

 

Jim

[Lee Damms]

Hi Chris, good wing construction pics I've saved them all for future reference, Ta

Lee

[Big Bandit]

Hi Anthony, thanks for the kind comment, I'm really enjoying this one apart from last weeks little fowl up .

Cheers,

Chris.

Edited By Big Bandit on 20/01/2012 15:02:09

[sticky fingers]

Just a quick question without notice Chris. I note you have included bottom L/E sheeting on your build ,I have no reference on either of my drawings 3or 4 channel version ,is this one of your mods.I,m well into my build but no photos as my camera was stolen in a recent break in, but the only mod I have made is to the wing braces which are now 1/8 ply instead of 1/16 . A final smooth sand and I ready to cover the whole model. BTW been following your blog from day one, cracking job. my intention is to go down the solartex vintage route ,will probably save weight in the long run. Really  looking forward to meeting the characters at greenacres in June,even if the weather is rubbish it doesnt rain inthe pub

 

Dave

Edited By sticky fingers on 20/01/2012 15:26:53

[Andy Green]

I too added bottom sheeting on my wings, It makes for a sturdier wing. Especially as I have ailerons on my build.

Andy