A, B, C or any certificate

[Alan Cantwell]

but it hasnt, clubs have stated that to FLY SOLO you have to have an A, so, you dont have to have one, do you? just wait until someone is free to stand on with you,

[Mark Powell 2]

'Join another club' ?

Or start one that does not require any test.

Buy your own site.? Why not? Or lease unproductive land from a farmer. That's how many 'country' sports work, why not us?

But this is way off Alan's original thread. so I will not elaborate.

[Alan Cantwell]

Glad someones noticed

[Simon Chambers]

Posted by Alan Cantwell on 22/08/2012 20:57:56:

but it hasnt, clubs have stated that to FLY SOLO you have to have an A, so, you dont have to have one, do you? just wait until someone is free to stand on with you,

Have you tried doing this? It'll be ok for a while, but you can't do it forever without people getting fed up! Of course British sensibilities mean that most people don't complain about it to you. Case in point, we have an old chap in our club who has been learning to fly his glow trainer for many, many years. Even though we try to get him to do his A, he has never done it - nor wants to do it. He probably could just about manage it now, but he doesn't have the confidence, nor will to do it. The one person he usually wants to fly with him, tends to get a tad annoyed with it. But being British (and of course a decent bloke), he still stands with him.

If your at the standard to fly your A-test, but refuse too - of course its not compulsory - and insist that you have other's to fly with you still, your not going to be the most popular person in the club to be honest! It works two ways, it's not compulsory for a person capable of being with you, to have to do it.

Of course, the vast majority of people are not likely to be stuborn or awkward to do this - as its just easier to do your A and get it out of the way - or go fly in the park/somewhere else not in the club enviroment. However my point is that even though it isn't compulsory, the policies in place make it effectively compulsory! Also that there are those that will avoid the club because of it - how many I do not know (I've seen a good couple of guys do it from our club), hence the query a couple of posts back.

Si.

Edited By Simon Chambers on 22/08/2012 21:31:00

[Alan Cantwell]

No, i have not, because i saw the need for self improvement, so i took the very simple A test, not satisifed, i wanted to be better, so i took the B test, very happy now, i wanted to help others, so decided to help them by becoming an official instructor, even more happy that what i had learned was being passed on, and others learning what i had learned, and they too where passing it on, i decided to go bigger with my models, and decided i needed to slighlty retrain the way i flew, so i entered into a self training regime, and took my LMA test, this, and this alone i look on as a show cert, all in all, i am very pleased that i do not have to put upon fellow members, and feel sad others see a simple flying test insults their very being, in fact, very very sad

[Jon Laughton]

I don't wish to further antagonise either side of the polarised debate that has arisen here and which as Alan has already stated is 'off thread'. Nevertheless could I point out to the moderators and others who may have influence with the RCME editorial team that this is clearly an issue that needs to be properly reviewed and explored within the pages of the magazine? Preferably by someone without any bias so not AW?

Andy Symons has done a very good job of stating the basis of the BMFA's position in this thread but I wonder if it would not be better to hear from Mr Phipps on how he sees the achievement scheme developing in response to the issues raised here from all quarters....with some of those who are clearly for & against the scheme or its imposition at club level also being interviewed.

This may be a more serious and more journalistic topic for the pages of RCME but if this thread is anything to go by it is needed...

Over to the editorial team

Jon

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Simon,

to pick up on your question of earlier ie

do other clubs see significant numbers coming along with foamies saying they have been flying in parks and then spending a short time at the club and leaving possibly because they don't like the requirement that you have to have an A cert to fly solo?

In short "no" - we don;t see that. Why?

Well its part of what I was trying to say above. Where I live - it is against the local bye-laws to fly a model plane in any park. My local authority is not unique in taking this view. Now we might not like it, and we might think that's wrong but the plain fact is that that is the situation we have to deal with. The local authority defend it by saying that it leases use of a site in its largest public park to a model flying club (the club I am a member of) so if you want to fly models - go there.

In parallel, it says to us (the club) - we'd like to be sure that anyone flying a model aeroplane in this public place as a member of your club is either competant or supervised by a competant person. If you can't comply with that we're not happy for you to use the site.

Now, we want to fly - so what are we to do? We use a nationally developed, off the peg, achievement scheme - surely you can see that the club isn't requiring this just to be awkward or officious - the situation clubs like ours are in is: "do this, or no flying for anyone". There isn't a third way. There are no other suitable flying sites in the area.

And one thing I do know - we are by no means the only club in this situation in the UK.

So, it isn't; Hi-Vis Jacket, nasty club committee people, making rules for their own amuzement and compulsion for the sake of it. Its just ordinary R/C flyers like you who want to fly and have to make the best of the situation within the limits placed upon them.

BEB

Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 22/08/2012 23:58:17

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

A practical example of the benefits of a formal test from last Saturday:

A pupil of mine, full size pilot, intelligent and sensible, has been flying very well recently and I decided he was ready for his A - been dropping hints for a while that he should familiarise himself with the handbook/CAP 658 etc.

As someone who is very familiar with his flying I'd have been more than happy to let him fly unsupervised but although the flying went OK in quite blustery conditions, when it came to the questions he was completely floundering and admitted that he had thought I (and an examiner who'd also mentioned that he should be ready for the test very soon) was joking about his readiness!

Perhaps there's a lesson to be learnt here about incorporating the handbook knowledge earlier in the process but the bottom line is that without the structured test, we could have easily given him carte blanche to operate with woefully inadequate background knowledge. Anyway, he was chuffed that he'd performed OK in the flying part and now knows what his leisure reading needs to be before the next attempt.

As Andy Symons inferred in a previous post, the A test is merely a structured way of checking that a pilot is skilled and knowledgeable enough to operate unsupervised, nothing in it should be difficult for a competent pilot and I see no reason why it should be feared.

[Andy Symons]

Whether we like it or not a club has a duty of care to its members and also to others in the locality, that duty cannot be ignored. Part of dealing with that duty is ensuring as far as is reasonably possible that they and the members operate safely, part of doing that is making a decision on who is safe to fly unsupervised, some clubs devise their own test, many use the A as it happens to be at a good level for it. Individuals also have a similar duty, the ANO puts the duty firmly on the individual, to not endanger others too.

[Simon Chambers]

Interesting point r.e. by-laws. I know for certain that a couple of parks in Bristol do have by-laws against flying, however I also have seen that they aren't always rigorously enforced!

I certainly can see the point of a club having a requirement for a A-test for solo and I fully agree with it. My experience with the A-test when I was learning (actually the second time, the first was when I was younger and the trainers wings came apart on its first flight) that it was heavily biased towards a traditional glow IC trainer. Electric aircraft at the time were capable of doing the test, except they often didn't have undercarriage to do so - such as my Twinstar 2. Incidentally that was the time when there wasn't a 1kg minimum rule - only the requirement for an undercarriage. As I was starting university at the time, I did not have the funds to purchase another aircraft to do my test.

When I returned to flying for the third time, the Wot4 Foam-e had just been released and not only was it a great aircraft to learn on, it was also cheap, met the A-test requirements and ready to go! I have to say, if it wasn't for the Wot4 Foam-e I probably wouldn't have got back into the hobby. Also with its flat wing, it's actually more challenging to fly for a beginner than something with plenty of dihedral. I reckon that has helped me progress quicker to other aircraft once I got hang of flying it and passed my A. I have seen couple of very fresh beginners really struggle with the flat wing on the Wot4 Foam-e - so I reckon its probably not necessarily the best aircraft to learn from scratch with.

The other great thing was that our club has some very dedicated instructors - and without them I would never have got my A. There was usually one around and more than happy to help on Sundays, so I could get plenty of hours in. Even those non-instructors were more than happy to take me up, as they knew I was pretty competent flyer and just needed to get practise in to clean and smoothen up the manoeuvres. Without enthusiastic instructors, I could never see the A-test requirement of a club working for new members.

However the only thing I would say, maybe it was just me, but I did feel that I was hassling them a lot to go flying. Also on busy days, I could be in a queue of a person or two before I could fly - which is frustrating when you really want to learn and want to fly. Another key thing that I saw some learners forget/not do was to always make sure I said thank-you to them after every flight. After all, if it wasn't for them giving up their flying time to help me, I wouldn't be flying now.

Now I that I have completed my A (it must be at least 1 1/2 years ago now), I feel great satisfaction and pride that I have done it - even after the initial frustrations. I don't doubt at all, that it has made me a much better, safer flyer. Also I don't doubt at all that it ensures that the club has a much better flying standard because of the rule. I'm all for the A-test.

The point I was arguing that seemed to raise a lot of conflict was that the A-test - even though it isn't - it has effectively become compulsory if you want to fly. Certainly BEB area is a great example - if you want to fly solo (locally), you can't fly in a park, and if your not friendly with a local farmer, the only place left is to go fly at the club. However to fly solo at the club you need your A test. Thus no A-test, no solo flying.

Does my logic on that make any sense? Maybe not, but it does in my head.

No, you don't have to fly solo - however I can't imagine that there is really anyone that doesn't want to eventually.

Finally, I don't really have any problem with this and it's just the way it is.

In regards to people flying in the park instead at a club (if no by-laws are around), I was just was querying if there was a way to, satisfactorily, integrate them into a club environment - instead of them flying at a park. Maybe at our club we don't highlight the many benefits from flying at a club.

Our club actually has a parkflyer class A-test - specific to our club. This is a weakened A-test (no 1kg minimum and no undercarriage required) but still requires take-off/landing/circuit/figure-8/questions. If you pass the test, your allowed to fly solo with aircraft under certain limits - but obviously only just at our club. However I have to say, I'm not aware of anyone actually taking the test - after all, if you can do it, then you probably can do it on a larger aircraft capable of doing your A.

Si.

[Mark Powell 2]

Simon,

your logic is perfect,. It is just plain daft for people to say 'It is not compulsory but you can't fly solo without it'.

The BMFA says 'advisory' Many clubs effectively make it compulsory. Odd, when the BMFA and its insurer are happy with 'advisory' and the club members are insured via the BMFA. I accept that there can be other reasons.

I could pass easily, so why do I object so strongly? I am not a sheep....

I note BEB's comment about his local authority leasing to a club. Our local authority takes the opposite view. It does not lease it to anyone, it 'permits' us to fly. That permission, it has stated, is open to all, not just the members of a self-selecting private organisation. Personally, I prefer our council's way, but as BEB says, we may not have any say in it.

PS: You have to be able to show BMFA insurance , thus, incidentally be a member of the BMFA.,t o obtain the required  (nominal cost) 'permit'. Why BMFA? Simply because the BMFA insurance is valid over the same dates as the permit, so anyone able to show a valid permit  at any time of the year is insured. But there is no 'self selecting private organisation' to  order us about.

Edited By Mark Powell 2 on 23/08/2012 07:13:15

Edited By Mark Powell 2 on 23/08/2012 07:20:37

Edited By Mark Powell 2 on 23/08/2012 07:39:39

Edited By Mark Powell 2 on 23/08/2012 07:51:26

[Greybeard]

Mark Powell 2,

May we assume that you don’t drive a car because passing a driving test before going solo is compulsory; if you do drive do you refuse to take out insurance because that is also compulsory? And then of course there are minor items like Council Tax, television licence, and fuel bills; all compulsions to be avoided. I suspect this compulsion nonsense is a red herring, the real reason some here are anti-club membership is because they have to pay a small membership fee whilst use of the local park is free?

[Mark Powell 2]

Martin,,

I was not going to post anymore on this thread (Do I hear cheers?) but I MUST take issue with this -

"As Andy Symons inferred in a previous post, the A test is merely a structured way of checking that a pilot is skilled and knowledgeable enough to operate unsupervised, nothing in it should be difficult for a competent pilot and I see no reason why it should be feared"

The BMFA does NOT say anything whatsoever about 'knowledgeable enough to operate unsupervised'.

Yours (or Andy's) is a classic example of taking something, interpreting it and extending it in a manner that suits their agenda or 'gut feeling', valid, good, reasonable, (which your/Andy's extension is) or not, and implying that such was the originators intention.

"If you obey the law you have nothing to fear". Later they change the law....   How long before councils and 'authorities' (authoritative people  tend to get on to authorities), see this stuff here, and extend it, just as you have done?

Edited By Mark Powell 2 on 23/08/2012 08:27:42

Edited By Mark Powell 2 on 23/08/2012 08:29:04

[Greybeard]

Posted by Mark Powell 2 on 23/08/2012 08:16:28:

Martin,,

I was not going to post anymore on this thread (Do I hear cheers?) but I MUST take issue with this -

"As Andy Symons inferred in a previous post, the A test is merely a structured way of checking that a pilot is skilled and knowledgeable enough to operate unsupervised, nothing in it should be difficult for a competent pilot and I see no reason why it should be feared"

The BMFA does NOT say anything whatsoever about 'knowledgeable enough to operate unsupervised'.

Yours (or Andy's) is a classic example of taking something, interpreting it and extending it in a manner that suits their agenda or 'gut feeling', valid, good, reasonable, (which your/Andy's extension is) or not, and implying that such was the originators intention.

Yes it does. Page 53: "The "A" Certificate which may be equated to a "safe solo" standard of flying. Different words but the same meaning I think.

Edited By Greybeard on 23/08/2012 08:24:37

Edited By Greybeard on 23/08/2012 08:25:00

Edited By Greybeard on 23/08/2012 08:25:20

[Mark Powell 2]

Greybeard,

Our differeng interpretation is always a problem when those formulating the phraseology are insufficiently expert to ensure that the wording is not open to interpretation.

It is this inexpert formulation that causes lawyers to exist  Bad formulation allows them, you, and me to 'equate' and  'think' and we all come up different.

Edited By Mark Powell 2 on 23/08/2012 08:39:35

[Max50]

Don't stop Mark; that's what the forums and this post is for. It's going off Alans Topic , but this is the first post i always look for, and we're up to number 6 now, so people are enjoying this thread.

I need to pass my 'A' test so i can fly solo at our club. I want to try it as well. I've been in the club about 4 or 5 years, Should have tried it in the first year, or a must in the second year, but haven't.

Why ? . it's not the clubs fault. I just feel awkward at having to ask people to stand with me while i fly. I'm an infrequent flyer. Can take off; land; circuits left and right; figure of eigths; one proper dead stick.

All what the test asks, but i feel i do not practice enough, so am not ready. So there's my crux.

PS. I think i'm under the club's radar now as a person who hasn't passed the 'A'.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Mark, I think you'll find that Andy speaks from a position of some authority on this matter. If I've misinterpreted his post then I apologise to him.

From my own point of view, I frequently check my interpretation of the scheme with 2 members of the review committee who I meet once or twice a week. I believe I have as good an understanding of its aims and aspirations as anyone not directly involved in its administration.

I really don't understand why you're so seemingly obsessed with the element of compulsion - there is no rule within the BMFA that member clubs must adopt a rule requiring any certification and it is clubs who choose to use it as a fair test of flying competence and knowledge of good practice and air law.

[Mark Powell 2]

Martin,

What 'authority' does Andy need to read a 60 page (or so) book? And what 'authority' has he got anyway? Do not take this as a criticism of Andy. It isn't. But other seem to be vesting him with it.

Compulsion? I am not obsessed at all. Many other people, some several times, have made the same point.

And, (without checking every single post), I am one of the very few to point out that is not the BMFA, making it a rule, but the clubs. And I have done this more than once. But you seem to think I have criticised the BMFA on this. So , once more -

It is not the BMFA it is the clubs.

And if any club thinks that not allowing people to fly solo without a BMFA 'A 'certificate is not complulsion to get a BMFA certificate they are nuts.

This is being wise long after the event but I think the BMFA might have thought some more. Maybe on the lnes of 'If we introduce a basic cerificate some clubs are bound to introduce it as a compulsory requirement and we do not want it to be complusory , so we should think very carefully about introducing it at all'. Unfortunate, we would not have this good test, but true nevertheless.

As I have said, it has become effectively compulsory in many clubs. No one wants to fly with a 'supervisor' for all their flying life. Whether the test is 'easy' or not is a matter of opinion. It is for those who have long passed it.

Air Law. Know all about that, and not through modelling. Not relavant to 99% of 'toy planes'. Many 'toy planes' aren't even radio controlled. Not dissimilar to all this way over the top and way beyond the actual requirements BMFA guff about 'Child Protection' a while ago. Just Nanny Williamson stuff. 'Society of Model Aviation Engineers' How the real aircraft world must have laughed.

Once more, to avoid future misinterpretation of my words (they have been (deliberately?) misinterpreted in the past) -

The A test is good. The BMFA did not intend it to be compulsory. For all practical purposes it is compulsory in some clubs.

[Simon Chambers]

Posted by Mark Powell 2 on 23/08/2012 10:18:15:

What 'authority' does Andy need to read a 60 page (or so) book? And what 'authority' has he got anyway? Do not take this as a criticism of Andy. It isn't. But other seem to be vesting him with it.

I believe (well at least what Google says) that Andy is BMFA "Northern Area Delegate" and according to the BMFA Bio "in 2008 I was co-opted on to the Achievement Scheme Review Committee another role I was happy to take on as I believe the Achievement Scheme is one of the jewels in the BMFA crown.".

Cheers,

Si.

[Mark Powell 2]

Simon,

The BMFA does many good things in many areas. Andy himself has never mentioned 'authority', only others. Nor an I questioning his opinion. Everyone has those. But there is no 'authority' in the BMFA. It does not 'govern' anything.

Edited By Mark Powell 2 on 23/08/2012 10:45:30

[Bob Cotsford]

Authority is being used in the sense of expert knowledge rather than goverance as far as I can see.

My view is that clubs choose whether to use the A level as proof of proficiency. Just as with any other club rule, if you don't like it, don't join. Mountains and molehills.

[Andy Symons]

Posted by Simon Chambers on 23/08/2012 10:32:26:

Posted by Mark Powell 2 on 23/08/2012 10:18:15:

What 'authority' does Andy need to read a 60 page (or so) book? And what 'authority' has he got anyway? Do not take this as a criticism of Andy. It isn't. But other seem to be vesting him with it.

I believe (well at least what Google says) that Andy is BMFA "Northern Area Delegate" and according to the BMFA Bio "in 2008 I was co-opted on to the Achievement Scheme Review Committee another role I was happy to take on as I believe the Achievement Scheme is one of the jewels in the BMFA crown.".

Cheers,

Si.

A little out of date, currently I'm the secretary of the ASRC, a chief examiner, acting power achievement scheme controller and since April the BMFA Club support officer.

this is going to be my last post on this thread as I have said pretty much all I need to.

The tests as far as the BMFA are concerned are not compulsory.

what clubs do is up to the clubs and almost always decided by their members democratically.

Clubs have a duty of care to their members and others. All responsible clubs will do something to ensure their members are safe to fly unsupervised, it may be the A, their own devised test, or an instructor saying they are safe, one of those options will almost always be compulsory in clubs.

The A test contains what I personally would expect of a demonstration from someone to show they are safe to fly unsupervised. If someone can't demonstrate what's in the A in my opinion they are not safe to fly unsupervised, simple.

Why is it a problem for a club to have some sort of compulsory demonstration of the skills required before being allowed to fly unsupervised, I cannot think of any. Even as an area chief examiner and chief instructor I would expect to have to demonstrate I was safe to fly unsupervised if I joined a new club.

when you join a club you also accept to abide by that clubs operating procedures, which is as it should be. You cannot pick and choose which to abide by. If your not happy with any of them don't join, it's not compulsory to join.

[Mark Powell 2]

I am out of this thread now. The OP asked abot certificates or not. It has gone way off that, and I am no more and no less responsible for that than others. So I stop. They can carry on with this off topic stuff or not as they see fit..

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Well, I think this topic has had its annual airing. No doubt the debate will return - it always does. I think everyone who wishes to has had a fair chance to contribute their views and "chew the fat".

The mods did debate closing this earlier but decided that, while it was off topic, there did seem to be a genuine wish to debate this aspect of certificates and as the debate was being conducted in reasonable fashion by all sides we let it run.

But I do think its run its course now and getting a bit "circular", so I'll lock it off there.

BEB