Mark Powell 2 Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 Don't give up. Yours could be fine. A lot of it is your rough landing area. In principle there should be no more difficulty with a Camel than with any other short nosed, narrow track biplane. I think your lowering of the noseweight will be good, even if not a complete solution. Also try putting more or tighter 'O' rings on the U/C to stop it wobbling about. But only after you try what you have already done. Move the CG back (again later) The Reeves video pilot was in a panic at first but he soon got over it. The real Camel's trickiness to fly for first time was caused by the high torque of its more powerful than the others engine. Doesn't affect our models. Also, deliberately, its rearwards CG. Would not fly level for more than a second or so without attention. Would spin at the drop of a hat but came out equally quickly. More feared by the enemy than any of our other aircraft.(all from Winged Victory). CG? with respect, your model should be much touchier than it appears to be in the video Edited By Mark Powell 2 on 30/08/2012 22:24:16 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PETER BRUCE - Eastchurch Gap Posted August 30, 2012 Author Share Posted August 30, 2012 Hi Mark. Thanks for your kind words and I wont give up as the model is a fine flyer and it looks so good in the air. I know that I will have it in the air this weekend (winds going to drop) so I hope I will see the model behave a lot differently and I will get someone to film it - with luck this thread could be of help to others like the poor guy who posted the exact same question about landing this plane on a states forum site and got no real help - fingers crossed. The "toe out" on the real planes was perhaps not a standard thing as it seems there is no consistency in the old pictures I have looked at - some had it some did not but it does increase the width / spread of the U/C which must have been some help... Regards Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbycat Posted August 31, 2012 Share Posted August 31, 2012 I have a large Nieuport 28, very similar layout to the Camel and never had a problem. The wheels were independent from each other and our field looks a bit smoother than yours. I did tend to bring it in quite slowly and try to get it in a 3 point attitude to stop it bouncing and as soon as it was on the deck I would keep plenty of up elevator in to keep the tail planted. I would also try to keep the power on a bit during the landing run to keep some airflow over the rudder and elevator. The rudder does need a quite a bit of work during the landing phase. However, it never seemed to veer around like your Camel. I suspect my Nieuport isn't quite as floaty as the Camel. Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PETER BRUCE - Eastchurch Gap Posted August 31, 2012 Author Share Posted August 31, 2012 Hi Andy. Thanks for your post and I think its more to do with the Hanger 9 Camel layout as this seems to be a common problem with this manufacturers kit. Even in the States on forums the question has been raised about this particular model but no cure was found. I to have a third scale DRI tri-plane and another that's a quarter scale and also a Fokker DVII together with a Tiger Moth. I can land them all - but that Pig Camel... After a great takeoff and flight the landing almost always ends the same way and my pride takes a big dent. If I have no problems landing any of the others why then all the fuss just the Pig Camel? I have changed the U/C and even beefed it up by doubling up on the wire thickness and using hardwood for the fairing's then setting it all in epoxy - you could have jumped in it and it would not bend or break - all had no effect. Desperate to find a cure I came here on the RCM&E site asking for help and its been worthwhile as so many comments have been generated. So many ideas regarding this kit have come out and the best answer to help the situation seems to be the lowering of the substantial lead weight box which is heavy and situated very high on this model - it may or may not work and I hope to find out over the weekend. I do find it amazing that this Pig Camel is so different from any of my other models - they all have slightly different landing characteristics but the Pig Camel is in a world of its own so I am hunting hard for the reason "why". If I don't sort it out with the two mods I have made now I will continue till the model gets destroyed trying as many modifications as I can - although I am very optimistic about the shifting of the lead weight box... The proof will be in the pudding (landing) so to speak. Regards Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbycat Posted August 31, 2012 Share Posted August 31, 2012 Hi Peter, I agree with you on keeping the weight as low down as possible. I'm not familiar with the H9 Camel but I did put the nose ballast in my Nieuport 26cc petrol) as low down on the firewall as I could get it. I too have a large(ish) Tiger Moth and love flying that. Never causes me a problem. Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PETER BRUCE - Eastchurch Gap Posted September 1, 2012 Author Share Posted September 1, 2012 JUST SO YOU DON'T MISS THIS IT'S ALL SORTED GENTS...... Fantastic time at the field today - bit windy (as usual) at our coastal site but The Pig has now turned into a very very very nice Camel indeed - in fact and angel .... Video to follow so you can all see what a total difference the changes have made - MIRACULOUS. The proof is in the landings and NOT ONCE did it try to "skate" like before and I had a fair cross wind towards the end of the day... My pride is now redeemed. I do hope you will find the answers helpful and I must confirm that this model has a design flaw which caused all the problems - the weight box should never have been designed to be installed at this high point - a massive statement I know but the clear proof is there as you will clearly see in the video - the Pig is now a Camel. Great - load of help from everyone which helped resolve the problem - the cure could also be of help to others. Regards Peter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbycat Posted September 2, 2012 Share Posted September 2, 2012 Congratulations on getting it sorted. I hope you get to enjoy a good looking model now. Looking forward to the video. Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Powell 2 Posted September 2, 2012 Share Posted September 2, 2012 GREAT GREAT GREAT !!!! So pleased. Now you have sorted it for us I will will open my Hangar 9 box Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil 9 Posted September 2, 2012 Share Posted September 2, 2012 Peter could you please post a summary of how it was fixed I have lost track what you used out of all the suggestions Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Cotsford Posted September 2, 2012 Share Posted September 2, 2012 God news Peter, unfortunately that won't work for me as the Jungie doesn't need any ballast, it's just got a gurt big lump of OS 61Fx up front high above the axle level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PETER BRUCE - Eastchurch Gap Posted September 2, 2012 Author Share Posted September 2, 2012 Thanks all for the congrats and I must say it felt great every time the Camel (not Pig now) landed. If the two mods I had done did not work I was going to go on with other ideas generated from this forum site till the plane fell to bits - which was a mark of how frustrated I was feeling... Now Feeling Cool about this model. Reply to BOB - ref Jungie model, so sorry this fix will not help you... Reply to Phill B - Wants summery - The two mods I have done to cure this which are contained in my little video within this posting - very clear pictorial view of everything done - you need not look far back. Ref Mark Powell 2 - You are so lucky to have a boxed new kit and this cure will sort any problems. Just one other tip which could help you with a very bad OIL TRAP ... At the bottom of the models firewall / engine side - you will notice a reinforcing narrow box section which is where the front legs of the U/C go. This is a bad boxed oil trap with no drainage at all and no matter how well you proof it there is oil penetration which gets into the ply. Modify this so oil / fuel can't lay at the bottom - Fill it in solid with Balsa and proof it well - it will be clear to you once you "Open The Box". Off to field again today - video of landings to follow... Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PETER BRUCE - Eastchurch Gap Posted September 3, 2012 Author Share Posted September 3, 2012 Here it is chaps -- What was done to the plane and the results - After two days of flying the Sopwith Camel I have not had one duff take off and the landings are a dream - - fast or slow approach. The worst landing I managed was to get one wing to touch the ground in a crosswind however it did not tip over as usual. This plane in totally different and I am truly amazed at the change. The change is not little - - it's MASSIVE. The below video covers what modifications were done and at the end the proof it works - you will see lots of landings - so you have the proof of what shifting a bit of lead can achieve. Implications are this "fix situation" could help other models with the same characteristics. Thanks again for all the input chaps. and I hope this helps others.Regards Peter Bruce. Edited By PETER BRUCE - Eastchurch Gap on 03/09/2012 08:50:04 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PETER BRUCE - Eastchurch Gap Posted October 15, 2012 Author Share Posted October 15, 2012 Just so you know that no brace wires are needed as its the weight box thats been the problem all the time - see video cure above. Still lots of the Camels around so I hope the post here wont get buried over time so it can help others... Stll landing like a first rate got all its teath Camel and not like the dumb Pig it was before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josip Vrandecic -Mes Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 Peter, You are the Master of landing.......it is my great pleasure to watch ,now,completely ''new'' Camel...congrats.. All the best Joe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bouncebounce crunch Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 Top job Peter, I do hope others try this and post their results. thanks for adding a good instructive video as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Etheridge 1 Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Well done Pete with both the landing solution and video,I wonder how many Sopwith Camel owners are changing their models. Also some good shots of the ditches at both ends of the flying field,an excellent reminder for me with any 'dead stick' landings. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Bran Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 If you change the Phoenix Simulator H9 Camel model to have a vertical CG of -0.16 (from 0.0) you will similarly ease its landings and take offs (while still being a reasonable challenge) Edited By Dave Bran on 17/10/2012 08:37:03 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PETER BRUCE - Eastchurch Gap Posted October 17, 2012 Author Share Posted October 17, 2012 Hi Dave - If you follow the details on the video the Camel landings are no challenge at all. Come in fast, slow, it makes not a bit of difference. Such a far cry from the Pig it was... Regards Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly boy3 Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Well done PB. I think we have been brain washed over the years into moving the CoG position in a horizontal position, by moving battery, or lead weight etc around. I personally never thought about the vertical plane ( no pun ) being important. Thinking about it ,it makes sense when the weight is as low as possible. great thing hindsight. Determination and grit solved this one. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger 2 Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 Peter I have been wandering through the site as I had nothing better to do and read your post.. You may have earned my eternal gratitude, I have a DB Cirrus Moth which flies like a dream just the same as yours did. The landings however are very difficult and to stop it from pecking the ground at the last moment is very difficult . You need 3D type elevator held on to keep the tail down when on the ground , the landing can be almost a stall on the ground on 3 points or a safe landing speed and run out. All ends with a ground loop or sometimes not,if the grass is very short.. My balance weight in the nose is exactly the same place as yours was, HIGH. So I will put it as low as possible as you did . I feel very hopefull after seeing the difference it made to your plane. Cheers Roger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Grigg Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 I think you gave the answer your self impossible!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PETER BRUCE - Eastchurch Gap Posted November 23, 2012 Author Share Posted November 23, 2012 Hi Roger. Thanks for posting and I can only say to try it - as you can see from the video I made - it was a different plane after that simple mod so I hope it works for you. I do try to SHOW people with a video & on-board camera what things are like before and after a modification with a model as its hard to ignore what you can see... I hope it helps sort out your landing problem - let us all know. Thanks for posting. Regards Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger 2 Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 Hi Peter I will let you know how I get on, the Moth is really nice to fly and has great presence. But !! pecking the ground is a real anoyance, I did have a posting to discuss the problems and in the end the decision was on the ground; use 3D amounts of up, to keep the tail on the ground. Which does work to an extent but if the runway is not like a billiard table at the end of the landing run it will peck. It is nothing to do with the c of g. Being a bipe, and thinking about the in built pendulum stability (measuring from the top wing) I checked the the moments and calculated i the c of g and it is within 0.5 cm of the indicated position with no fuel on board. At the moment our runway is more suited to planes that float, it is that wet and muddy. So it may be a while before I can give the Moth a flight. Cheers Roger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PETER BRUCE - Eastchurch Gap Posted November 25, 2012 Author Share Posted November 25, 2012 Hi Roger. Thanks for the information and I do hope it helps you. When I sorted mine out it was not easy to accept that the manufacturers of this plane kit could get it so wrong but it shows they can... Let us know it goes when the bog turns to a field - same as ours... Regards Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daniel barton Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 may i ask if you have a tail wheel as if you didnt, it may have helped by adding alittle weight to the tail. also i was thinking of moving some weight towards the rear. i dunno if it will work but as you have sorted it theres no need but with full sized bi-planes that had landing trouble, they developed a system that would (apon landing approach) slide a small weight to the tail which would move the centre of gravity towards the rear and use a slight increase of engine power to land the plane level, which stopped the tail over nose situation that i seen in the first video. again this may not help you at all but i thught it maybe worth mentioning here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.