Hanger 9 Sopwith Camel (Pig) Land-Dings

[PETER BRUCE - Eastchurch Gap]

I have now had 2 Hanger 9 Sopwith Camels and its a great plane to throw about the sky with a good presence but landing it is another issue. I did think it was me but as I have two DR1s a DVII and a Tiger moth - all of which I can land with no problems I started to think things perhaps were not right with the model but this 2nd Camel is still the same "Pig" to land... Also got another experienced club member to have a go and it also gave me a chance to film it to see if anything could be learnt - fast approach, slow approach, three point - all end up the same, looks like it wants to ice skate / waddle the final part of the landing. I tried stiffening up the U/C but that did not help either. I also went looking on YouTube for a Hanger 9 Sopwith Camel landing but you can see them doing a take off and flying but I have not seen any doing a decent landing...

So has anyone cracked this beast yet and turned theirs from a Pig to a Camel!

Please please let me know how its done - but only if you have done it with the Hanger 9 model. If your interested in the little film I made after my friend said "give me a go" you can see the results of his endeavour are the same outcome as mine.

Lets see who comes up with the solution / mod.

Regards Peter

Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 29/08/2012 00:23:13

[ken anderson.]

too fast most of the time and then - lets the model go off line before its stopped......the speed causing it to try and tip over on one wing...and then go over on its nose.......

ken anderson ne..1.... nose over dept.....

[PETER BRUCE - Eastchurch Gap]

Thanks for your input however even with a good head wind and slower ground speed the result is the same - its not the speed its the final final final bit where the speed should not be an issue - that's why I asked for replies from Hanger 9 Camel owners who know how hard this is to land. I have been told of one guy who is looking at fitting a gyro in the hope it helps him. I will be told the results with a bit of luck by a third party - extreme fix but if that's what it takes. SOMEONE must know who has owned one - or like me two... I do honestly suspect there is a design fault but only an owner would know. - Peter

[John Olsen 1]

I don't know , but I do know that the Hangar 9 Sopwith Camel as simulated in Phoenix is about the hardest plane to fly nicely in there. I have the Fokker DVII from the same stable, that one has very nice habits, although I am still not up to flying it without the buddy box. The only time it has ever misbehaved was taking off in a crosswind, something to avoid where possible with biplanes.

Having said that, and bearing in mind that I am very much a learner at the piloting side of things, those landings do look fairly fast. Biplanes have a low wing loading generally, and should be able to come in quite slow. But of course not so slow that you stall too soon.

John

[kevin b]

Does it do the same on a dead stick landing ?

It appears to drop the starboard wing as soon as you release the throttle. Could it be a torque reaction ?

It also appears to bounce a lot. Is there any way of damping the U/C ?

[PETER BRUCE - Eastchurch Gap]

Hi John. Thanks for your reply and I to have the Fokker DVII as well and i's a nice plane to fly with no vices at all but it's so much much lighter than the Camel which has the in-built lead weight box stuffed solid with lead to ensure the CofG is right which is because of it's extra short nose.

I did try reducing the lead content but only a small quantity needs to be removed to screw up the ballance of the plane and then it becomes a bit nasty to fly.

I also have the Phoenix flight sim but although its reasonable in the sim the landings are in no way complimentary to what you get with this model (sigh).

[PETER BRUCE - Eastchurch Gap]

Hi Kevin.

I myself usually kill the engine as soon as its on the ground to save damaging the prop however my fellow pilot Dave who was flying the plane when I did the video chose not to cut the engine but to leave it on idle when he landed in different manners each time - the end results were the same either way - "the skate" at the end - Reason I call it skating is that its exactly the way you start off ice speed skating.

[Alan Pennington]

Is the wheel binding making it turn?

[Startazz No1]

No i'm not going to give any advice as i don't have the model,it is a shame though because it is such a great looking and flying plane,i must admit i was surprised when i read it was a Hanger 9 plane giving you this head ache.

I hope you get someone who has one and can give you the advice or the mod you might need to sort her out.

If not try a google search and see if anything pops up,might be worth a try.

[Pete B]

Relatively narrow track with a high C of G, coupled with a less-than-billiard table surface, is a recipe for waywardness once the tail surfaces lose authority, IMHO. The strip is uneven enough to make the wheels react to the slightest undulation/lump and the rudder/elevator haven't got enough 'leverage' to correct in time.

I suspect that on a good tarmac strip, it may well land and stay upright but, once the controls lose their bite, directional control will be minimal.

One option might be to set dual rates on the elevator, with plenty of upward travel, for the landing phase, with bags of expo and a lot of self-control!

Another might be to consider fitting a gyro to the rudder - whether it will still be fast enough to compensate I'm not sure - and we're still back to having adequate control authority.........

Just my 2p worth.........

Pete

Edited By Pete B on 27/08/2012 20:40:42

[Rusty C]

Just a observation, But that field looks pretty bumpy. That with rock solid U/C and a heap of weight hanging over the axel and a good bit of lift when the tail wheel is about to touch is causing the skippy ride.

Just my penny worth

Rusty

[Alwyn Gee]

Hi

I have this model with electric power and whilst it is not the easiest of models to land I have managed more times than not to get it down a lot more dignified than that. I still have the occasional final nose over as it stops but just up onto its nose and back down again. Lately I've had more trouble with it squirming around on take off but i think that's been me being too heavy handed with the throttle.

I would agree with previous comments that it is comming in far too fast and when you are trying to put the tail down it wants to fly again and any rudder movement is amplified by the speed. I find it has to be a slow approach and then stalled into a 3 pointer to have any chance of keeping the tail down on grass. loads of elevator helps as well. If I remember correctly I increased the elevator travel from what was recommended for this reason.I also have 50% differential ailerons and 50% expo on full rates.

Alwyn

[John Dimond]

Nothing wrong with your landings - fast or slow - it's just loss of directional control in the roll-out. A turn develops, then a skid, tipping the aircraft onto a wigtip, which reverses the yaw, wheels alternately 'digging in', hence 'waddle', high CG = nose-over.

Increasing rudder area would be a travesty on such a nice scale model, but you could try larger rudder throws, and adding a trickle of power just before the point the ground loop starts to develop.

And always land straight into wind!

Good Luck.

John

[PETER BRUCE - Eastchurch Gap]

Hi all. This is getting interesting - I have just come off another site and this is a copy of the guys post

quote:

ORIGINAL: kayakcarl

I am flying a Hangar 9 Sopwith Camel with a Magnum .91 4-stoke. It flies great, except for the end of the landing roll. The end of the rollout always ends in a groundloop. It seems to run out of enough air over the tail to hold a straight rollout. I have taped a tailwheel to the skid to see if that would help hold it straight, but it has not helped. Can anyone give some advice?

Thanks - This seems more common than I first imagined? Peter

[PETER BRUCE - Eastchurch Gap]

Hi (First) Alan - No wheel binding and also RUSTY asked if the field was bumpy - its not flat but I never have any problems with anything else and it is rolled but the dips are still there. - as I said before its just the Camel (Pig). After going on a few other sites (see copy above) the landing problem is a common gripe about this model - also it used to kill enough pilots with the real thing so I could be on a no winner here. I think JOHN DIMOND has mentioned many valid points regarding this model but that means to cure it I would need to almost butcher it and that would be a shame. ALWYN replied and has an electric version but he did not say if it was the Hanger 9 - seems he has cracked it but if it is the same model could it be that he has the weight box fitted lower down!!! Confirmation if you can ALWYN as there has to be a reason your getting the landings and others are not.

On the other site one person came back and said that perhaps having the wheels fixed to each other could help keep a better track... Anyone else think it could help or do I fit pick axe handles as per my DRI... Keep em coming thanks all. Peter

[moorer]

Maybe a longer,slower and flatter approach might help keeping the tail down with up elevator as soon as it slows enough, but i believe the full size wasnt easy.

[Alwyn Gee]

Hi Peter

Yes it is the Hangar 9 version and I would not lay claim to having cracked it completely but as I said earlier I do get more landings to stay upright than nose over tho' they're not always pretty, it can still tip side to side on the wing tips on that narrow undercart. The slower the better to reduce the length of the roll out. Also have to agree with the comment above to try to land directly into wind. Not a good model for a blustery day but a bit of steady head wind helps to reduce the ground speed.

With electric flight all landings are dead stick landings but the windmilling prop creates drag and helps to slow it down after the throttle is closed so speed drops off fairly rapidly. I'm now having to re-learn my landing technique with my new Ready2Fly Venom as this is the first EDF I have flown and this does not have a prop to slow me down. My first three landings so far have been a little hairy to say the least. It just does not want to slow down when I shut the throttle.

Alwyn

[pete taylor]

Hi Peter. I haven't flown a camel, but from experience with DR1's and other tricky ground handling models, fixing the wheels to a common axle that is allowed to rotate most definitely tamed most of the beasties at the expense of limiting the ability to turn whilst taxing. Forms a fixed differential on effect. It's worth a try and a cheap fix if it works.
Cheers, Pete

[Ian Jones]

Hmm, as Ken says those landings in the video are too fast. Once the wheels contact the ground there should not be enough speed left for it to fly again even after a bounce.

I don't have a definitive answer but you may like to try trying not to land. Huh? What I mean is make the same approach as in the video only getting lower earlier and as the main U/c is about an inch above the grass keep gently applying more elevator to try and keep it an inch above the grass. It will probably fly on for some distance like this because it will not land until it is good and ready. It will be a three pointer (provided you have enough elevator range) and the elevator will be more effective at holding the tail down.

If it doesn't want to come down when you do this then perhaps the tickover is too fast or the prop pitch too coarse.

If even on a dead stick it tends to suddenly drop it's nose at low speed then it could be nose heavy too.

Hope I've mentioned something useful.

[bouncebounce crunch]

find some videos of the full size and you will notice they land very slowly and use lots of wagging on the rudder on the roll out that is the only solutions I could come up with maybe a bit of toe in on the undercarriage might help like some other tail draggers.

I hope you find a solution your models sound and look great.

[kiwi g]

blip the throttle as per original .. eg blip power for forward movement , idle to desend , blip to power forward , idle to desend. cut power when on the ground

these have lots of wing area so lift easy on power but have lots of drag as well . use the power and the drag to land ..

.. give it a go . bet it works..

[Mark Powell 2]

Try -

Remove the axle from the U/C and replace it with a brass tube. Run the axle through this and fix the wheels so they are locked to the axle and must turn together.

My Flair Atilla did this (on tarmac, never been flown off grass) and that fixed it. Have never flown it from grass but yours looks pretty rough.

Seems daft, but you sound desperate. What's to lose?

Try not to bounce so much

[PETER BRUCE - Eastchurch Gap]

Hi to all of you and also the many helpful points coming over. The video I made was of my friend Dave trying to land the Camel and because he has seen me try so many ways he decided to try to land doing it HIS way which is why they are fast. All my other planes I can land and that includes two DRIs which are pussycats compared to the Camel. I have landed the Camel a number of times but its always the final stage when its raw bad character comes out and bites you. I made it land on its maiden flight (see video) but that final bit of the landing is never the same and it's always unpredictable which is why I am so frustrated with this model and asked for help.

ALWYN has kindly replied (many thanks) confirming his plane is the Hanger 9 Camel and he has given a number of points which I have tried in the past to no avail with any regular landing success. Pete Taylor relates to my question regarding a COMMON AXLE with the wheels fixed so there is no differential in effect and this looks the most resilient way forward but has its own design problems with the existing model.

The fact remains that when this model keels over the majority of it's inertia has finished but the violence of the "dump" is exceptional for its remaining speed - OK the video where Dave is trying all other landing speeds that I don't do is not the best example but he has seen me try everything else which is why he was a bit extreme but his ideas did not work either and only amplified the Camels bad nature (same as the animal itself) but look at the below video of my own landings and you will notice that even on this, after all the forward speed has been bled off you still have the beast rear its head showing itself right at the end - nowhere near as violent but its there when really there should be nothing. I have to add this is one of the best landings with this plane but its landing consistency I am looking for at and I just don't get it.

Any others out there tried the COMMON AXLE idea put forward by PETE TAYLOR... So ...

Regards Peter

[Mark Powell 2]

I just suggested common axle too, I missed the previous post on the subject. You are stuck. The 'too fast' people have said is irrelvant, whether it is true or not. Its at the end of the landing and the plane does not know what happened before. Even the bounces.

DO take the time to try a locked axle. No guarantees though.

[Wingman]

I find 'wheeler' landings to be the most successful on our inch deep grass field and then hard up elevator when the skid touches down but not 100% successful - needs a long shallow approach.

The wing digging in on take off is, I think, a power thing - effectively a torque roll - I can prevent it by a long, slow accelerating, take-off run but, on our field, I'm biting my lip to clear the rough stuff around the field perimeter plus, of course, you have to steer it with the rudder for much longer!

Suppose the real solution would be to move the axle line forward a tad but then you'd be spoiling the looks a bit.