Hanger 9 Sopwith Camel (Pig) Land-Dings

[kiwi g]

try flying a 2 channel on rudder and throttle with fixed elevator.. .. sopwith swallow mono from memory.. not a bipe but a good lesson on how to fly on the wing and throttle . for example.

[Mark Powell 2]

The elevator controls the speed, the throttle controls the height. In all the fullsize books. No elevator, no real speed control. And the SOLE purpose of trims is to take the strain off your hand. Nothing else.

[PETER BRUCE - Eastchurch Gap]

Hi again all.

Got up this morning thinking my last efforts (see my last video above) would crack this problem and I found a load of postings casting so many doubts I almost want to dig a hole and jump in - with the Camel... .... Just to give a bit of background I had my own hang glider, paraglider & paramotor power unit and I was flying for 20 years till the the wife saw a microlight crash. Jan stopped me flying after that so I sold my gear and took up models again (did it before cars & girls - in my youth) started with IC Heli's and quickly moving onto scale heli's as scale looks right in the air.

The reason I mentioned heli's is that the first input you have to make on a heli is for the tail - so many of your replies mention flying the tail so I had to respond because on a heli if you don't know where that's going your model will be in bits which is why converts from heli's to planes always input / fly the tail first. Because of my hang gliding days I also have two hang glider models, one IC and the other electric which are a handful to fly as your elevator is your throttle and trying to sort out your CofG on a bit of Nylon is a real headache and response to pitch is slow. In short my pilot skills are not that of a raw beginner however I am not a flying show stopper either... From the scale heli's I moved onto planes and quickly became hooked on WW1 aircraft. I have two DRIs - one is third scale and also a Fokker DVII and the latter is a real pussycat to fly and land and has good stature in the sky - I land all this lot (24 models now in total) with no issues at all - but the Camel (Pig) stumps me almost every time I land and its my pride that it hurts. Other pilots have tried to land it - fast, middle speed, slow and all end with the same result so could it be this kit or a "plane issue"? If you look at ALL the videos you will clearly see that the issue is right at the end - just before the model stops. Forget scale, how you fly it , fast, slow, three pointer because its down with its tail on the ground, not flying, just going to stop - then over it goes. It's that latter problem that upsets me because as you have hardly any forward speed it does not matter what you do with the rudder input your waving in dead air - you lost any viable input from the rudder 10 yards before it finally flipped over... So take a look at the videos again and see what you think - also I placed a post on this site about another poor chap with the same model asking for help in the States regarding the exact same problem on this Hanger 9 Sopwith Camel model which made me feel a little better I might add - but his replies did not crack the problem so is it this model / kit the suffers!!! Regards to all - great debate, Peter

[PETER BRUCE - Eastchurch Gap]

Hi all.

Been looking around and managed to find just a couple of Camel good landings on YouTube and I also found this on which is a large Mick Reeves kit and the final part of the landing demonstrates the bad character of the plane so it looks like you have to live with it... Fantastic model but a Pig not a Camel!

Edited By PETER BRUCE - Eastchurch Gap on 29/08/2012 11:04:54

[Mark Powell 2]

I agree about the 'pre-turnover' issues. It's all right at the end. The rest is interesting but not relevant, much of mine included.

But I think your lowered nodeweight will fix it.

We will try to keep quiet. Please tell us what happens. (my big box is now on the table)

[PETER BRUCE - Eastchurch Gap]

Hi Mark. No question about anyone keeping quiet as all this great discussion is relevant and helpful because it gets the grey matter working. Looking at the last video I posted on the Mick Reeves model there is something else I can do and that's to bend the axle so the wheels have more spread on the ground. I wont gain much but it could all help calm the problem. This mod would be easy to do so it's worth incorporating it now - I missed this and although it was put forward in the thread discussions it went over my head so thanks to whoever put that forward - the feature will be added today. Shame its blowing a gale outside as I am keen to see what happens - will the Pig become a Camel! - Peter

[Mark Powell 2]

Sorry for the Big Letters but I want to be sure you don't miss it.

IT IS THE BENT OUT WHEELS THAT CAUSES HIS PROBLEM.. HAPPENED ON MY FLAIR ATILLA.

When they got bent by my incompetence and I didn't notice them.. And if his sprung undrcarriage is like that when taxying it will be no use as a shock absorber when landing.

PS: Flying is fine, though he says it is tail heavy. A Camel is supposed to be like that. On average, took a WW1 Camel pilot three months from his first Camel flight to get a real fist on it. Thirty percent of first Camel flights were lethal.

 

Edited By Mark Powell 2 on 29/08/2012 12:14:02

Edited By Mark Powell 2 on 29/08/2012 12:14:27

Edited By Mark Powell 2 on 29/08/2012 12:15:43

Edited By Mark Powell 2 on 29/08/2012 12:18:02

[Piers Bowlan]

The narrow track landing gear seems to be the culprit. Also the model appears to lose directional stability once it is in a three point attitude suggesting that the fin and rudder are not large enough. As bbc says, the pilot of the full sized a/c would have been working pretty hard with the rudder pedals to keep the aircraft straight through the landing roll. I can't see fixing the wheels to the axle to be of any benefit with this particular problem. Also, I think toe-in may exacerbate things (toe-out?).

Make sure you have LOTS or rudder travel. Once you are down (or after the first bounce!) and you notice the aircraft yaw be quick to apply plenty of opposite rudder to keep it tracking straight. (On the video I can't see if you are) Like the full size always try and land into wind if you can. If you touch down with any yaw on, you will surely ground loop (which is what is happening) with that narrow track landing gear. One other suggestion is perhaps moving the landing gear forward a tad which might aid directional stability. Not very scale perhaps and a right pain to do but it might help.

I hope you sort it out Peter as it looks like a lovely model in the air. The final part of the landing roll does somewhat spoil the effect!

[Mark Powell 2]

The wobbling about and tip touching of the Reeves on landing is caused by his too weakly sprung undercarriage. The ground is smooth and looks hard. Just as well have a monowheel in the middle.

[PETER BRUCE - Eastchurch Gap]

Hi Mark. I have made sure the wheels / axles were in good order - it was the first thing I checked. I have even made it so the U/C had no suspension but that did not help matters.

I am now worried because you say the bent out wheels could cause a problem - don't want to go any further down that route so perhaps I should go with the two mods I have done so far and see what happens - that's the trouble when the weathers bad you tend to get stuck into the problem more and if your not careful you can make things worse...

Thanks for pulling my collar on this one Mark. Regards Peter

[Bob Cotsford]

What, no mention of toe-in v toe-out? I'm firmly in the toe-in camp and convinced it helps with tracking.

The main reason I'm watching this thread is that my Jungmeister is a pig for tripping up at the end of the landing roll, usually while travelling in a straight line so any hints to cure that will be helpful. I like dropping the CofG and moving it back, I think that will involve adding lead at the tail for the Jung. This model also has a tall narrow u/c.

[Mark Powell 2]

The Atillla was fine for 12 years before the axle got bent (roughly equal on both sides). The tracking,no toe in or toe out was still fine. Fixed the out of vertical of the wheels and it is ok again. Even with the wheels bent out is was ok until it started to accelerate.

Springing? My Atilla always bounces on landing. My other planes don't so it is presumably not me. I sprung it by cutting off the rigid axle, putting slots like you Camel, and soldering the new axle to the middle only of the old one. Made no difference.

The wheels are not 'fixed' to each other

You will notice on the Reeves video that when a tip touches the opposite wheel does not leave the ground. Thus it is caused by the too soft springing.

Edited By Mark Powell 2 on 29/08/2012 12:45:29

Edited By Mark Powell 2 on 29/08/2012 12:52:21

[PETER BRUCE - Eastchurch Gap]

Hi Mark. Interesting to note the heavy toll on pilots with the real thing and just hope if we can come up with even a part solution it will be of great help - I am hopeful on shifting the lead weight myself but will have to see on that first landing...

Piers - I do hear what your saying and when the tail is flying you can get a responsive input but when all three points are on the ground you have no control and the narrow tract of the plane becomes a major issue but as Mark pointed out about 30% death rate says it all. Agree on the direct into wind and I will only progress to the wheels being fixed to the axles if the two mods now done don't work as it will progress the problem / cure. I did consider moving the landing gear forward but the front strut is already as far forward as it can go - nothing to secure it onto left. The only other option is to re-design the landing gear with longer a longer rear strut length which would push the axle position forward a bit but it could then look visually wrong. Regards to both. Peter

[Mark Powell 2]

Peter,

I amended my post, but you may miss it.

So,

You will notice on the Reeves video that when a tiptouches the opposite wheel does not leave the ground. Thus too soft sspinging rather than the narrow track, though that won't help.

[Mark Powell 2]

PS:

The instructor said "Take care, the supply of Camels is not unlimited". Presumably there was no limit on the supply of pupils.

[PETER BRUCE - Eastchurch Gap]

Hi Bob - Interesting to note that your Jungmeister has a similar problem to my Pig Came! .

It would be nice if both our problems could get sorted and with the help and comment / discussions here there is a good chance an improvement / cure could be found - with a bit of luck. I have noted your toe in / toe out remarks but I think it wise to try what I have done and the try that before I then have a go at the fixed wheel / axle as I cant do the latter before the former!

[PETER BRUCE - Eastchurch Gap]

Hi Mark

his instructor said "Take care, the supply of Camels is not unlimited". Presumably there was no limit on the supply of pupils.

My grandfather spoke a bit on WW1 - he was stuck in the trenches and lost a lung in the first German gas attacks - he always said the top brass only cared about materials and even felt that an ammunition carrying horse was worth more than any man - sad days...

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

A good example of a relatively benign aircraft of the same period suffering from a slightly fast touchdown, bounce and groundloop:

...and it's not all over even when it's down and apparently rolling out from a good landing.

 

(I think the throttle blipping after landing might have initiated this one?  Not sure why the pilot thought it neccessary...)

I don't think you can really blame the model - or its pilots - you may improve your chances with a fully held off touchdown directly into wind but the original design - especially coupled with the very bumpy ground, is always going to make landing a Camel of any size a bit of a lottery.

Edited By Martin Harris on 29/08/2012 22:41:22

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

That was a hell of a side slip on that Camel!

BEB

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Actually, thinking about that blipping, of course it is necessary to keep the engine alive but perhaps needed to be a bit shorter? It must be an enormous workload, not only flying the aircraft but also managing the rudimentary engine controls - no wonder so many new pilots were lost in the early days...

[Keith Simmons]

It was not landing into the wind, Look at the rudder hard over as he does not want to swing towards the crowd when on the ground. That sideslip shows how strong the crosswind is.

[bouncebounce crunch]

Posted by Bob Cotsford on 29/08/2012 12:26:55:

What, no mention of toe-in v toe-out? I'm firmly in the toe-in camp and convinced it helps with tracking.

i mentioned toe in earlier Bob, but not a comment until you mentioned it.

[Piers Bowlan]

The Avro 504 and Sopwith Camel both suffer from a narrow track undercarriage plus a tiny rudder. Once in a three point attitude in the landing roll the rudder is masked by the fuz, plus the fact that they are flying very slowly indeed so the effectiveness of the rudder is negligible. This is why the throttle is 'blipped' to effect a draft over the rudder to increase it's effectiveness and so keep the aircraft tracking straight despite the crosswind. A tail skid instead of a tail wheel was also unhelpful as far as ground handling was concerned, another reason for blipping the throttle to effect a change of direction with that tiny rudder. Hardly surprising they took off and landed dead into wind if they could.

In the video of the Camel it is landing in quite a stiff crosswind as Keith pointed out, it was crabbing into wind not side slipping as someone suggested. As the pilot flaired he was using full rudder and gunning the throttle for most of the landing roll to stop the aircraft weather cocking into wind - ground looping.

As for "'a good example of a relatively benign aircraft of the same period" I am not sure I would describe any aircraft of that period benign! They were underpowered, draggy and most had some very bad handling characteristics. Not least of which was the rotating rhone radial engine fitted to some aircraft of the period with its gyroscopic effect causing some vicious handling characteristics. The Camel was particularly bad in this respect. Did I mention the engines were very unreliable?

[Piers Bowlan]

I meant to say that most Camels were fitted with Clerget rotary engines although some were fitted with Le Rhone, Gnome and Bentley BR1 (rotary) engines. The pilots used to blip the throttle by switching the ignition switch on and off to reduce power as closing the throttle involved adjusting the mixture. Great! The Camel in the video I think is a replica in the US so who knows what engine it is fitted with. Whatever it is the pilot was blipping the throttle coordinated with application of full left rudder to keep straight.

[PETER BRUCE - Eastchurch Gap]

Hi all - Grim weather so cant yet try out the mods to the Camel but I think the change in the lead weight shifted to a lower level will help the most... Anyway I have been looking at all the recent posts and note that with the Camel at the Old Rhinebeck aerodrome video once it starts going wrong it did not matter what input the pilot put in the plane just "did its thing". I also think that with this Camel at Old Rhinebeck they would not let an inexperianced pilot near it as it must be worth a fortune so any pilot would have to have rotary engine and tail dragger experiance. Taking the latter point into consideration I now give you another film to look at of that same Camel (still a pig to me) and it indeed lives up the that last name I gave it - the poor pilot could do nothing - except see that door grow in size... With ground handling like this in the real thing I could end up getting nowhere with this model and going out and getting myself a nice docile Sopwith Pup!!!