Weyfly Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 I was flying a wing in 6-8mph on a NT site, an old hillfort, a parascender walked below me, got his canopy out and raised it in front of me, I can't move around much so stayed there, I couldn't see my wing and it came down some distance away, this happened a number of times with two flyers. I refused to be baited, eventually one of the parascenders said, "what else do you expect, you're in the best place". With not enough lift one of the flyers took his canopy back to his car and got out his RC glider and flew that, well away from me. At no time did I interfere in their flying. So, where do I stand legally? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty C Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 dont think anyone is at fault really, unfortunate though did you get the wing back? I dont think any party has the legal high ground on this one, but a bit of courtesy from the other side wouldn't go a miss ay rusty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simon barr Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 We have this problem from time to time. They just turn up, rig and launch without even a "Hello".... Damn rude if you ask me... , and for safety's sake, we, the modeller have to land... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brfc7 Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Not sure why your asking where you stand legally? You were both out enjoying the countryside so surely a quick comment to him as he was setting up would have been the option to inform him he was going to obstruct your view of the model. And if he was still adamant to set up in front of you then sorry but legally you should have landed the model or moved your position for safety reasons as you could have damaged property or injured someone due to the model crashing. baz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat (rActive) Harbord Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 From a safety perspective, they have to comply with many of the rules we do. I would advise you not to make it personal though. Offer to land, allow them to launch safely, then resume your flight. Be polite and courteous at all times. This way you stand more chance of them doing the same. They want the same thing as you do, to fly. There's plenty of sky, you just need to agree on some procedures for the ground bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simon barr Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 We've tried talking to our lot, but with no joy... And, no, we don't have plenty of sky, we have fairly restricted cliff sites. I appreciate that we are all there for the same reason, to use the available lift to enjoy our respective sports, but a bit of courtesy wouldn't go amiss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Holmes Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 The BMFA have a safety code for hanggliders: http://www.bmfa.org/publications/pubslist.html I used to have a copy but cant find i now so dont know the wording. Matt Edited By Matt Holmes on 10/12/2012 19:52:02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weyfly Posted December 10, 2012 Author Share Posted December 10, 2012 Thanks Matt, the BMFA link has been taken down. I have spoken to them before about similar incidents but they refuse to support or take any action. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Jones Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Weyfly, it's still here on the list but it's not a download, it's free on request though. I would think that articles 137 & 138 ANO apply as usual. I don't know by definition but I would presume a parascender to be an "Aircraft". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheFlyingCrust Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Weyfly, was it at Egardon? Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weyfly Posted December 10, 2012 Author Share Posted December 10, 2012 Nah, Maiden Castle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheFlyingCrust Posted December 11, 2012 Share Posted December 11, 2012 Hmmmm. The airspace is available to anyone so I suppose they are well within their rights. Just inconsiderate. But the north slope of Maiden Castle is quite long, maybe 300 or so metres. It beggars belief they couldn't move to a different part of the ramparts. Probably too lazy to lug their canopies that distance. Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator Posted December 11, 2012 Share Posted December 11, 2012 On the edge? BEB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Harris - Moderator Posted December 11, 2012 Share Posted December 11, 2012 I've been resisting that one BEB! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Harris - Moderator Posted December 11, 2012 Share Posted December 11, 2012 ...but the real reason I dropped in to this thread was to ask a question. The ANO states that "An aircraft shall not be flown in such proximity to other aircraft as to create a danger of collision." I believe that models are (although excluded from the majority of regulations) defined by article 166 as "small unmanned aircraft" i.e they are, technically, aircraft. Also, Article 137 – Endangering Safety of an Aircraft states "A person must not recklessly or negligently act in a manner likely to endanger an aircraft, or any person in an aircraft." Does this mean that the hang glider arriving on site to launch has a legal responsibility not to endanger your model if it is already flying? Bear in mind that distance isn't necessarily a factor if he endangers your model by blocking your (legally necessary) unaided visual contact... I find CAP 658 (a guide) a little woolly here. It implies that Article 137 doesn't apply to models under 20 kg but as the ANO (which is Law) appears to define all models as aircraft then surely it does? Edited By Martin Harris on 11/12/2012 13:23:10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olly P Posted December 11, 2012 Share Posted December 11, 2012 Martin - I think you are right on the money there - he is operating (launching) in a manner likely to endanger an aircraft, therefore breaking the letter and spirit of the ANO. If he spoke to you and asked you to land so he could launch then, I think most, if not all, of us would. Olly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weyfly Posted December 11, 2012 Author Share Posted December 11, 2012 Yeah, I like that-"on the edge" ha ha! One of the flyers was traversing the slope and back again so my chance to stay away from them was limited, he dropped his canopy within a meter or so of me and was getting pulled up the slope, I had to walk across his lines to go find the wing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olly P Posted December 11, 2012 Share Posted December 11, 2012 Hmmm....our insurance covers use for causing loss to other people - would there insurance pay out if they blocked a view and a model crashed as a result?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foamie Dave Posted December 11, 2012 Share Posted December 11, 2012 Posted by rActive on 10/12/2012 18:00:00: Offer to land, allow them to launch safely, then resume your flight. Be polite and courteous at all times. This way you stand more chance of them doing the same. As above..however if you fail to receive a thank you or courtesy nod, walk over to his butty box when he's not looking and launch it down the hill. Not exactly Karma but it'll make you feel better on the drive home Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devon Flyer Posted December 11, 2012 Share Posted December 11, 2012 Posted by Martin Harris on 11/12/2012 13:09:44: Article 137 – Endangering Safety of an Aircraft states "A person must not recklessly or negligently act in a manner likely to endanger an aircraft, or any person in an aircraft." Does this mean that the hang glider arriving on site to launch has a legal responsibility not to endanger your model if it is already flying? Bear in mind that distance isn't necessarily a factor if he endangers your model by blocking your (legally necessary) unaided visual contact... I would have said that was bang on the money Martin. Any action that endangers control of an aircraft which is flying, must contravene Article 137. A hypothetical worst case scenario could see an RC pilot lose control of a model glider and injure or kill a walker on the hill. If loss of control could be directly attributed to the paraglider deliberately inflating his canopy, knowing that it was directly in the RC pilots line of sight, and doing so with the express intention of making the RC pilot clear the slope to allow the paraglider to fly; then I think he would be on very shakey ground from a legal point of view. I certainly would not want to be in his shoes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flying Flea Posted December 11, 2012 Share Posted December 11, 2012 Unfortunstely, there are ignorant individuals like this who think they have more of a right than other people to pursue their interest, above all others. I used to fly hang gliders years back and the model flyers at the site and the hang gliders mixed pretty well, with some common sense rules, that all were happy with, so that neither party were spoiling it for anyone else. Usually to fly on NT sites,you have to a memeber of a club, to use the site e.g Pennine. It may be worth trying to find out if this joker is in a club and have a word with their chairman, as flying sites are hard to come by for all parties and that kind of behaviour is'nt going to do them any favours at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Startazz No1 Posted December 11, 2012 Share Posted December 11, 2012 From most of what i have read you have your answer,i bit of common sense goes a long way in most situations i find,plus always be nice and polite and if they don't first you start a conversation then that way there isn't no awkward silence,if that didn't work just say could you wait a moment and i'll land and then you can be off,then once they have you can then start flying again once it's safe too. Most people respond well to kindness and manners and it cost nothing,don't take the stance it's them against me or there hobby over ours,as we are all out to enjoy ourselves are we not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheFlyingCrust Posted December 11, 2012 Share Posted December 11, 2012 FF, Maiden Castle is in fact English Heritage, not NT. Do the same rules apply as with NT sites? Interesting. Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weyfly Posted December 13, 2012 Author Share Posted December 13, 2012 English Heritage advice to users of its sites is not easy to find, NT-after spending time on its websites I can't find any info. There are other bodies such as wildlife trusts whose sites we use that have only the basic advice on offer. Can others assist? I feel that the coming together of groups of users has probably come about because it hasn't been discussed at a higher level in our governing organisations on an on-going basis, all sports and hobbies change over time. Relying on goodwill works up to a point? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Jones Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 National Trust Model Flying Policy is Here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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