Does your club allow you to fly alone?

[Erfolg]

I am sure that all pragmatic people can see the major flaws with quoting safety as a reason for a rule for no flying alone.

Although not mentioned, many accidents occur in the home, often where a single occupant is present. No sensible person would try and argue that single occupancy is not permitted on the grounds of health and safety.

I have had a look at various statistics to obtain some examples. What has surprised me is the complexity in how the the values are presented. Plus the apparent variation between the countries. It all points to a desire to present particular pictures, driven by politics and pressure group interests, rather than presenting simple facts. Rospa indicate that 200,000 people last year needed hospital treatment from DIY, of which 20,000 involved scalpels and knives. Then again 5,000 people died in the home, and 2.7 million went to A&E for treatment from accidents in the home. How many of these occured to an individual alone, was not apparent.

Perhaps after considering these figures, the risk from loan flying can be put into perspective.

Perhaps it would be far better to suggest that lone flyers should be aware that there is a risk, which could be mitigated by carrying a mobile phone for emergencies.

Maybe that clubs with the lone flier rule, should accept members request for a club member vote, for repeal of the rule.

I also had a slight issue with the idea that no one should flout a club rule. When I consider the flouting of various UK laws from parking a car partially on a pavement, not undertaking archery practise on the village green each morning, all those who have used company property for their own use, be it a piece of paper, a pencil, and so on. What is so different about club rules, they are all intended to ensure a harmonious society, rather than being the equivalent of one of the ten commandments. Then again how many of those have many of us manage to ignore at least one, such as  coveting that club members 6 cylinder radial engine, yet recognising some seem far more valid than others.

I am now going into the garden alone, it seems that there were 6,500 accidents there last year from the lawn mower. I think I will stick with my chain saw, there were no figres for that.

Edited By Erfolg on 24/03/2013 12:40:45

[Tony H]

You arent allowed to fly alone at my club, which is a little daft since we are all adults and have mobiles on us.
If I get to the field and i'm alone I wait for 30mins incase someone turns up so I can fly! Which is very annoying since its a 1hr round trip from my house. I often run engines in while I wait which isnt flying but is allowed but just as dangerous!!

Edited By Tony H on 24/03/2013 12:42:20

[Tony H]

If you are a half decent rc flyer you should be allowed to fly alone I think, however beginners should not fly alone.

I often find it more dangerous flying in a group with all the engines drowning mine out, more destractions and many beginners flying.

I have often had a plane land heading towards me in the flight box while I am flying or planes fly over my head from beginners losing control.

[Toni Reynaud]

From our Club rulebook:

It is generally not advisable to fly a power model totally alone, as in an incapacitating emergency help might be difficult to get.

Also, anyone who does not have an A cert may not fly unsupervised (ie alone)

[Tony H]

Seriously though how often do you hear about a lone rc flyer being rushed to hospital or anyrc flyer?

How often do you hear about a lone rc flyer flying his own plane into himself and is in a critical life threatening state?

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

At our club lone flying is not banned - but it is discouraged. As non A-cert holders are not allowed to fly at our site without an instructor - obviously lone flying is only an option for those who do have a A-cert!

There are two reasons why it is discouraged:

1. The one cited many times - if you were unlucky enough to suffer a serious injury you would likely be very glad of the assistance another person can offer. I agree with many here that in the final analysis this is personal decision moderated by common sense. So for example, speaking personally, I'm quite happy flying alone with an electric powered parkfyer or smallish model. But I personally wouldn't operate a large powerful model (electric or ic) unaccompanied. But I'm glad that my club allows me to take that decision!
2. We fly in a public place - we have the strip marked out and regular dog-walkers and other visitors are well used to seeing us there. But the unexpected can, and does, happen. A youngster/dog breaks away from their parent/owner and starts running across the strip. In such circunstances its useful to have another person present both the warn the pilot and also to "deal" with the transgressor! Perhaps alerting said parent/owner to the problems. Again this is less of a difficulty with a small model that you could put down on a pocket hankichef almost anywhere. But its a potentially much bigger problem with a 7 foot wingspan model - where you don't have so many options! So that's anyother reason why I don't fly big models alone.

Finally, whilst I fully appreciate that some folks like flying alone - I very much prefer to fly in company. I just find it more fun.

So, I think we have a fairly sensible set up - its not banned, but for very good reasons its not encouraged either.

BEB

Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 24/03/2013 15:53:07

[graeme jones]

I won't count replies for rule/no rule from now on, because I think (from the wording ) that some clubs are represented more than once, but it seems as if, at least from this small sample, that about 1 in 3 have a rule against lone flying. That's fair enough, each club being able to set it's own rules. The different attitudes to the rule, or absence of one, are interesting however, ranging from a rule being absolutely essential (for whatever reason) to we don't need a rule on this 'cos we are all responsible adults. When you stop and think about it though, some sites that have a rule may not actually need it, while if we are all responsible adults why do we need ANY rules. The farm field site that I use does not have any written rules and has been in use for model flying for at least 40 years with no serious injuries and no fliers having heart attacks etc. We do have two unwritten rules. 1. The gate must be kept shut unless you are going in or out of it. 2. Common sense must be used at all times.

At the risk of upsetting some, do club rules come about from a desire by committee members to "cover their backsides"? Are club rules ever reviewed to see if they still make sense?

As an example,I have always had a problem with the now almost universal club rule that effectively turns the Achievement Scheme A Certificate into a licence to fly. I don't think the originators of the scheme had that in mind. At least the club at my second site has a rider which permits solo flight without an A provided that the flyer is deemed competent by an examiner. This is just common sense because some, while perfectly capable, perhaps having flown for decades, may not want to "achieve" anything in particular. They just want to enjoy a bit of model flying as a hobby.

Graeme

Edited By graeme jones on 24/03/2013 16:22:27

[Codename-John]

Mines the same as BEB`S more or less, theres no rule against it but it`s not recommended on accident grounds as we`re out in the middle of the sticks. The nearest building is about a mile away so if you had a nasty accident, chances are, unles you can sort yourself out, your stuck

The difficulty comes in those of us who have to work though, during the week most of the members who can, fly in the daytime and usually head home around 4pm ish, when you dont finish work until 4pm yet still want to make use of a nice summers evening it would be rather difficult to justify a trip up there only to have to sit around hoping someone else turned up or have a wasted journey.

As long as your sensible and understand the dangers, I dont see any problem

[DH 82A]

" As an example,I have always had a problem with the now almost universal club rule that effectively turns the Achievement Scheme A Certificate into a licence to fly. I don't think the originators of the scheme had that in mind. At least the club at my second site has a rider which permits solo flight without an A provided that the flyer is deemed competent by an examiner. This is just common sense because some, while perfectly capable, perhaps having flown for decades, may not want to "achieve" anything in particular. They just want to enjoy a bit of model flying as a hobby.

Graeme "

----------------------------------------------------------

Exactly.

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

regarding the specific question of committee backside covering - well now you are broadening the debate somewhat Grahame.

I'd make a couple of points on this - the first is that in any decently run club, with a proper constitution, the committee does not usually have the authority to change the club rules - only a vote of the membership at an AGM or EGM can do that. The committee has the power to propose a rule change - and to recommend that change to the membership - but not the power to actually make the change.

The second point would be that committee members, theoretically at least ,as the official officers of the club, could have a personal liability for damages caused by the club's activities even if they were not actively engaged in the specific event that led to the damages.

In BMFA affliated clubs an extension to the familiar 3rd party insurance provides committee members with personal liability insurance in the event of such difficulties - provided all flying members within the club are BMFA members. Personally I would think twice about taking on office in a club where such personal liability insurance was not in place.

So, are committee members acting to "cover their backsides" as you say? Well I suppose what I'm saying is that in my experience, in a well run club, the answer is "maybe - sometimes", but that when they are doing so who can blame them? Would you like your house "on the line" because of someone else's opinions on "personal freedom"?

But, and this is the vital point, such covering of backsides that does go on need not be to the disadvantage of members - nor can it be done "over their heads" because of the requirement for full membership approval of any rule change. In practice, where non-critical issues like lone flying are concerned, there is a handy "get out clause" for all concerned. The committee often doesn't need a "rule" to protect itself from liability. Merely issuing advice would be seen as sufficient legal protection. If members ignore the advice then that then is at their personal risk and liability - the committee can sit back and effectively say "we advised him not to do that and here is evidence of our advice in writing". This is why so many clubs include a statement discouraging lone flying in the their mambers' handbook - it gets the committee off the hook!

If the issue is something bigger - something where perhaps there really does have to be a rule then its still quite simple. If a committee brings a rule change to the membership and really believes this is necessary - but the membership rejects it, then there an obvious solution. The committee can always resign. Then those members that don't want the rule are free to form a new committee and shoulder the full responsibility themselves. It's funny though how most objections seem to suddenly evaporate in those circumstances!

Finally please remember - most committee members are just ordinary flyers trying to do the best for their club - they are not doing this for fun - they'd much rather be flying. And sometimes difficult decisions have to be made. If we constantly push an "us and them" attitude to the committee system, and refuse to accept that sometimes they have perfectly good reasons for doing things that may not be popular - then eventually any decent types in model flying will simply refuse to serve on club committees - and then where would we be?

BEB

Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 24/03/2013 17:44:24

[graeme jones]

BEB - I didn't say that I thought committee members WERE acting to cover themselves, I asked IF they were. There's a difference. Otherwise I agree with what you say. I've been a MFC Chairman and Secretary myself in the dim and distant, so I know how things work. I refer you to my statement earler re. my reasons for starting this thread.

Keep up the good work

Graeme

Edited By graeme jones on 24/03/2013 18:05:51

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

No Graeme - I appreciate that you were asking the question - not making the statement. Sorry if I gave an impression otherwise.

BEB

[Erfolg]

BEB

I am at a loss as to be able to imagine that there is any situation where there would be a conflict of opinions where any committee should push a action through. If the situation was so polarised, I would hope and expect the committee to stand down and elect new officials.

In most clubs, it is not a case of the committee controlling the club, it is a case of they are the only ones prepared to undertake a role.

Unfortunately, this does not mean the best people occupying a role. The present club I am a member, has the unfortunate situation where the chairman resigned, feeling he was no longer able to undertake the role. This role he filled completely, he was, and is effectively the club, even now. His replacement had big shoes to fill. to date he has a long way to go. In fact I would go as far as to ponder, will he be the last Chairman? Club chairman undertake a difficult role, no place for a jobs worth, a "this is my decision", a petti bureaucrat etc.

With respect to the issue of should you be allowed to fly alone. It is a no brainer, why not? You would need to be a complete H&S zealot, not to see the unreasonableness of the proposition. By all means say you do it against our advice, at your risk etc.

I do agree with the premise the "A" certificate has become the de-facto licence to fly. I will be attempting to obtain one, as an enabling document to fly elsewhere. I guess the other reason, is that my existing club does not have a landing strip, my hopefully new club does, but to fly unsupervised I need an "A" certificate. I have noted a difference of approach between my instructor, quite laid back, the safety officer certainly is not. Then again, in a free situation, safety needs a lot of tact and a balanced approach, difficult to consistently achieve. I do get the impression that an "A" certificate is like a degree, there are degrees and degrees and your degree is not as good as my own. As the club I am joining, does not recognise "A" certificates from other clubs. This seems to be bizarre to me.

Edited By Erfolg on 24/03/2013 18:12:04

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Posted by graeme jones on 24/03/2013 16:14:26:

I have always had a problem with the now almost universal club rule that effectively turns the Achievement Scheme A Certificate into a licence to fly. I don't think the originators of the scheme had that in mind. At least the club at my second site has a rider which permits solo flight without an A provided that the flyer is deemed competent by an examiner. This is just common sense because some, while perfectly capable, perhaps having flown for decades, may not want to "achieve" anything in particular. They just want to enjoy a bit of model flying as a hobby.

As an examiner, I'm struggling to understand why I would deem anyone competent to fly alone if they weren't able to demonstrate the simple requirements of the A test.

Examiners are allowed to make allowance for test nerves before anyone raises this point - a decent examiner shouldn't be putting the candidate under any undue pressure and should be putting them at ease. If flying in front of someone is too much for a pilot to endure, would I want that person flying alone when a bunch of children, for example, happened to wander unsupervised into the field and made a beeline for the flightline asking all the usual questions?

The A test is a very useful standard for clubs to apply and for new members to aim at - how fair would it be seen to be if an arbitry decision on the whim of a committee member or senior pilot was the alternative?

[Steve Hargreaves - Moderator]

Slightly off topic but I hope a relevant point to this debate......

I think we are all pretty much agreed that if you did have an accident whilst at the flying field you might be extremely glad that there was someone else there to help you out but I wonder how many club members could accurately summon an ambulance or similar actually to their flying field?

Given that most flying clubs are by their very nature fairly remote what would you tell the controller to enable the emergency services to find you? "Turn left by the white gate near the hole in the hedge then turn right at that buiding that used to be a Post Office....." H'mmm might take them a while to find you......

At my own club we have the nearest postcode & GPS co-ordinates engraved on a sign on the clubhouse to pass onto the controllers....dispite this it still took an AA man 30 minutes to find us once when my car broke down (don't ask!!) & I had to "talk him down" via the mobile.....I'm very glad I wasn't looking after a heart attack victim or a guy who was losing blood from a badly gashed hand at the time....

[Erfolg]

The risk of being alone are measurable. if we take a typical week. Many of us will spend many hours alone, some of us, will garden alone. In my case i probably spend 60 hours typically alone. Now compare the ratio of my time at the field, possibly 6 hours to 60, a factor of 10.

Nobody with any sense of proportion, or respecting others right to live their live, would seriously consider saying this is unacceptable.

I can imagine that some would argue, the dangers at the field are greater, than in the home. This would be without any foundation. It is known that most natural deaths occur about 04:00 hours or 4 AM, it is also known that one of the most dangerous places is in the garden, with one of those power tools, the stairs are extremely dangerous as is the kitchen, yet not even the HSE has advocated (well not yet) that all power tools must be 24v, that knives to be banned, and stairs replaced with lifts.

So how can any reasonable person argue that a modeller should be stopped from lone flying. I have voiced similar sentiments previously, I would not remain a member of any club, with such a policy. Then again, any club with such a policy would not want me either.

[Gordon Bushell]

Just as a footnote to what I said earlier, I have just received an email from our club committee.

In view of the article in BMFA News, they have decided to remove the ban on lone flying, as an experiment until the next AGM. Whilst not recommended, lone flying is now possible.

At least now if I'm the only bloke there I'll be able to fly now, with all due care, of course.

[Phil 9]

The only valid reason for no lone flying IMHO is if a look out is required .

If a lookout is required then a person should stand next to the flight box during any flying activity. A person tuning an engine in the pits or who is also flying a model is not a good look out

Edited By Phil B on 30/03/2013 13:09:26

[Erfolg]

Now that seems a very sensible approach.

Determine if there are issues. As Phil has suggested, there can be valid reasons, for a second pair of eyes.

[Bernie]

I am a lone fl yer out of choice .but it is common sense be very careful when doing so it only takes a prop to fly off and head your way .an accident comes to mind when i did club fly .the guy came to the patch with a very large spitfire and whilst starting. The spinner came off followed by the prop hitting matey s hand .needless to say it was a hospital job .he was lucky there was two of us there .you all know things do fly off models and you can be as careful as anything .so lone flying .well i don't have a choice at the moment .

[Phil 9]

Posted by Bernie on 30/03/2013 13:49:48:

I am a lone fl yer out of choice .but it is common sense be very careful when doing so it only takes a prop to fly off and head your way .an accident comes to mind when i did club fly .the guy came to the patch with a very large spitfire and whilst starting. The spinner came off followed by the prop hitting matey s hand .needless to say it was a hospital job .he was lucky there was two of us there .you all know things do fly off models and you can be as careful as anything .so lone flying .well i don't have a choice at the moment .

. the clubs that ban lone flying do not ban starting and tuning engines. The guy above was not flying when the accident occured.

[Myron Beaumont]

Risk is certainly calculable statistically as has been admirably pointed out .SO--Why do some idiots go out climbing Snowdon etc. in this recent weather knowing they're probably have to call out our expensive emergency services even though they are "experienced".I'm a lone flyer and hate people around me putting my concentration at risk .I do appreciate the dangers (after55 years ) and use common sense and my experience to keep my body intact .As some of you know ,I was a pro guitarist for 35 years or so ! I should know something about why I still have all my digits intact!

Yes,I get very grumpy at times (now where's my nanny gone -Boo Hoo)

[Bearair]

My club insist I only fly alone!

Please advise

[Myron Beaumont]

Bearair

You could come to our farm BUT we'll have to fly in seperate fields