who is at fault?????

[Jamie sawyer]

Well Andy I think you have been treated Disgracefully with the whole thing. A 50 % refund is terrible and a complete cop out of a full refund or just a replacement airframe. Rob Jones if the LMS was making a 30% Profit then for a further £40 they could have just replaced his aircraft at a zero profit margin !!! Everyone would have been happy and the case would have been closed. Instead they have ignored him until they relised he wasn't going to go away..

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Posted by Rob Jones 2 on 09/09/2014 23:19:55:

Shame on you, and shame on the clubs that support you!

I find that rather a strong reaction. The retailer should be claiming the cost of faulty goods from the wholesaler or manufacturer if they buy direct and it should actually cost them nothing but a little time.

I'm afraid poor after sales is just one more reason why businesses fail. Since a similar case affecting a friend's model some years ago (I was test flying it for him so felt involved) where a wing joiner failed - it was lite-ply! - under very normal flight conditions for a supposed aerobatic model, the miserable response from the retailer means that we both walk past their tent at shows and wouldn't consider mail order or a visit.

Supporting a LMS needs to be a two way thing - pay a little more maybe, but expect decent service in return.

[Rob Jones 2]

Posted by Jamie sawyer on 09/09/2014 23:35:41:

Well Andy I think you have been treated Disgracefully with the whole thing. A 50 % refund is terrible and a complete cop out of a full refund or just a replacement airframe. Rob Jones if the LMS was making a 30% Profit then for a further £40 they could have just replaced his aircraft at a zero profit margin !!! Everyone would have been happy and the case would have been closed. Instead they have ignored him until they relised he wasn't going to go away..

Lets just say goodbye to the local hobby shops then. I believe it was a pre-built plane in the first place, those of us who build our own know what goes into them.

[avtur]

Posted by Gurth Scriven 2 on 05/07/2014 16:07:35:

... In reality your supplier should have refunded your money, or replaced said deficient item of goods (toaster, portable wireless or model plane) if he was any sort of businessman he would have then expected his wholesaler to make good his loss in order to retain his goodwill and his business.

I've lived the life of LMS, the thought that the wholesaler would make good any loss to the retailer is something I simply do not recognise.

What ever reparation is made to the end customer will come out of the pocket of the retailer, each will deal with problems differently.

I like to think that while I was LMS I did deal with customers very sympathetically, but then perhaps that has something to do with the fact that I moved on from being LMS ....

How does the saying go ... how do you make a small fortune out of model retailing ... ah yes ... start of with a large fortune and open an LMS !!

Edited By avtur on 10/09/2014 00:00:27

[Jamie sawyer]

As they sold it to him it is there obligation to refund or replace. I run a business and have had products fail or break that clients have bought from me. If they are under warranty then I just go and replace the item.....remove it from there possession and return it to the party that I received it from and I get refunded as the business owner. Its a very simple process Rob and you work down the chain.....I'm not getting into a public debate about it with you but you have bashed the thread all the way through and he's clearly proven that the air frame is inadequate due to poor construction and flaws in the wing. It flew for lets say 20 minutes at best ..........thats poor no matter how you cut it..

Jamie

[avtur]

Posted by Jamie sawyer on 09/09/2014 23:57:07:

....remove it from there possession and return it to the party that I received it from and I get refunded as the business owner. I

Jamie

That may well work in other retail environments but the thought that it would work in model retailing is sadly something I simply do not recognise (as previous LMS owner) ... once you have bought from the wholesaler you are on your own ... you might get the local 'rep' to cut you some sort of deal on a future order to help 'make good', but the wholesaler would not generally recognise product failure ... It's just not the same as high street retailing ...

[Rob Jones 2]

Posted by Jamie sawyer on 09/09/2014 23:57:07:

As they sold it to him it is there obligation to refund or replace. I run a business and have had products fail or break that clients have bought from me. If they are under warranty then I just go and replace the item.....remove it from there possession and return it to the party that I received it from and I get refunded as the business owner. Its a very simple process Rob and you work down the chain.....I'm not getting into a public debate about it with you but you have bashed the thread all the way through and he's clearly proven that the air frame is inadequate due to poor construction and flaws in the wing. It flew for lets say 20 minutes at best ..........thats poor no matter how you cut it..

Jamie

But it is not that clear cut Jamie.

RC model planes, by their nature crash. So do full-size. when it comes to that. Pilot error is often considered, though not always proved.

We are not talking about a toaster that burns bread after only 3 uses. We are talking more in terms of a horse that bucks you off when you jump it the third time.

A skilled rider walks, talks and ground handles the horse before taking it over jumps...

If you want to eliminate crashes, use a sim..

[Rob Jones 2]

Posted by Jamie sawyer on 09/09/2014 23:57:07:

As they sold it to him it is there obligation to refund or replace. I run a business and have had products fail or break that clients have bought from me. If they are under warranty then I just go and replace the item.....remove it from there possession and return it to the party that I received it from and I get refunded as the business owner. Its a very simple process Rob and you work down the chain.....I'm not getting into a public debate about it with you but you have bashed the thread all the way through and he's clearly proven that the air frame is inadequate due to poor construction and flaws in the wing. It flew for lets say 20 minutes at best ..........thats poor no matter how you cut it..

Jamie

But it is not that clear cut Jamie.

RC model planes, by their nature crash. So do full-size. when it comes to that. Pilot error is often considered, though not always proved.

We are not talking about a toaster that burns bread after only 3 uses. We are talking more in terms of a horse that bucks you off when you jump it the third time.

A skilled rider walks, talks and ground handles the horse before taking it over jumps...

If you want to eliminate crashes, use a sim..

what if the owner flies successfully 100 times. On the 101th flight, a component broke, or the radio snagged. What, after 10 years, a supposedly sound component snapped? Is there a time period  between which we can aerobat and not aerobat? When can we claim?

I stand by what I say, shame on you for maligning a model shop for doing their best to restitute.

 

 

Edited By Rob Jones 2 on 10/09/2014 00:25:03

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

What a sad state of affairs, Avtur. It's a shame that these distributors don't realise that if the model shops fail they won't have a customer base!

I must say that when I've addressed product issues directly with Ripmax and Horizon, their responses have been excellent and far removed from your experience with whoever you dealt with.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Posted by Rob Jones 2 on 10/09/2014 00:15:55:

I stand by what I say, shame on you for maligning a model shop for doing their best to restitute.

Rob, didn't Andy tell us that after sending the wings (at his own expense) the shop has failed to make any refund or answer his queries? If so, I know who I would call shame on!

Edited By Martin Harris on 10/09/2014 01:00:17

[Cuban8]

I hope in future when you just need a glow plug or bolt on the field, you have to sent an email to Asia to get it!

Overheard the proprietors of a stand chatting to each other behind their counter at the recent Nats (name changed to protect the guilty)

"Here Fred, I see that Hobby King Have got a load of those !"£$%^&*(^&s in again"

Fred's reply..........

"Blimey, (expletive deleted) better get a (expletive deleted) load of them in again (expletive deleted) quick"

Fred noticed that I'd heard their conversation and with a sneer said to me " well it's business mate, you know technology"

Kettle calling the pot, black?

[Jamie sawyer]

Rob & Avtur, I am definitely not bashing model shops and I totally agree that trying to keep them. We are all modelers after all so it goes without saying. I understand your argument about the scenario of how everyone crashes and even the most professional can have a dumb thumbs moment or pushing it to far and doing something stupid causing the airframe to super cede its capabilities. This is not one of those cases clearly is it !

I've never had this happen to me but I do tend to read the reviews that come with aircraft before I buy them and I have read some horror stories about wings breaking on ARTF aircraft and I steer away from them. It's all in Hobby Kings hanger of aircraft. In the reviews there could be 6 and 4 of them are good but 2 are wings giving way........That's poor build quality or poor materials being used.

If I built a model and it flew for 20 min max and broke a wing I'd question my materials or skill......you would to surely...

Soon as you buy a ARTF and walk out the shop £150 lighter and get 2 evenings of pleasure and expectation of kitting it out and then 20 minutes of flight till failure is Wrong ........You can't say it isn't surely......

I use my LMS quite a lot but I also use Sussex Model Centre online all the time and thats simply because of there customer relations.....I also use Just Engines....I tend to stick to what I know and I know that that 2 shops are fantastic and very helpful in there sales and sales support......

As a business owner I know what it is like to have financial difficulties. I'm 5 years divorced.....My x wife cleaned me out before she left by a figure of £23,500 and I had no idea what she was doing in that 6 months before she left. I ate Super noodles for 6 months and slept on a floor for 6 months before I stabilized my self but I didn't bring my problems into my business and recovered from it all. The reason why I mention this is simply as I said before for a further £40 they could have sent out another airframe and had a satisfied customer. If they have financial issues they shouldn't let it creep into there customer relations. Im not bashing them, I actually sympathize to a certain point but they have an obligation to the public who keep them afloat...

P.s I dont sell toasters lol

Jamie

[Rob Jones 2]

I take your points, Jamie.

Perhaps I should rant at the internationals ......but even they are following a good business model.

Progress, I suppose. We lose local shops but we gain cheap technology, sometimes with poor QC..

[Gary Manuel]

Interesting thread with some quite different points of view.

There used to be small shops on every street corner. Most of these have long gone because of the competition by the large supermarket chains. The ones that remain are there because they offer something extra, that the large supermarkets don't. This "something extra" is usually excellent customer service or stocking specialist products or just "being local" for the forgotten purchases.

If LMSs are to survive they need to look after their customers by offering as many Unique Selling Points as possible. They will never beat the international suppliers on price, so they have to beat them at customer service.

The wise modeller will also recognise that it is in our interest to keep the LMSs going - even if it does mean spending a few more pennies here and there. If we don't, the prices of the large suppliers will rise when their competition has gone.....

[adrian lawrence 1]

We must not forget that under UK conumer law it is the shop that is responsible for replacement or refund of faulty goods. Most retailers will try and duck out of this by getting you to return items to the manufacturer. If it's the pilots fault we just have to accept the loss, however with an artf that clearly fails due to poor construction I would not hesitate to involve trading standards and the small claims court.

Suppliers such as Hobbyking frequently get knocked for poor customer service, however I have had far better customer service from them than I get from most UK based companies

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

I have a lot of sympathy for the LMS. I believe they are caught in a three-way trap:

1. They are supplied by wholesalers who are less than supportive. Personally I believe the distributors are the biggest liability in model retailing at the moment. Let's face it the whole business model is outdated. These days when anyone can order anything in any quantity from anywhere in the world - what the hell are distributors offering if not support? I fear the answer is too often, zip. If they don't significantly improve they will go under and sadly take a lot of LMS's with them. True - some are better than others, Horizon for example do seem to be trying to offer more; better back up, good websites with useful additional product info etc. But overall its a pretty depressing picture.

2. They face competition from new, large scale, well resourced and professional international suppliers - the HK's of this world. As has been said, competing with them on price is extremely difficult - on product range its probably impossible. So, again has been said, the LMS has to offer something different, and the obvious things are: first class personal service and ready availability, particularly of those bits and pieces we need in a hurry. OK its hard to make a living selling clevises, but if we get good service with things like that then maybe we' should support with the odd big purchase as well.

3. They have big problems with us! Some of us have totally unrealistic expectations, others are just "chancers" who will always push the outside of the envelop - to breaking point. We can be unreasonable. For example the shop that gives us great service through many transactions over 5 years, then because of one single issue were we disagree, we boycott them! I'm sure any model shop owner would have a 100 tales to tell of totally unreasonable customers, a prime one being less experienced people who don't read the instructions carefully and then bring an item back demanding a refund because "it doesn't work", when in reality there is absolutely nothing wrong with it! The LMS's problem of cause is spotting the difference between them and the customer who does have a genuine legitimate grievance. But that is a skill they have to have. There is no doubt that the better retailers err very much on the side of caution here and give a lot cases "the benefit of the doubt" and refund - even when in their heart they know it isn't justified - but in the interests of keeping an otherwise good customer it's a long term wise decision.

In my view the retailer should have fully refunded you or provided a replacement. You were able to produce reasonable evidence of a manufacturing/design fault. Yes, it's short term bad news for him, but longer term he may well have benefited. This is why I think its very important that when a retailer does do "the right thing" we offer thanks, praise and encouragement - its important to us in the long term that they get positive feedback and loyalty off us when they show that they are prepared to "go the extra mile" for us. You might say that it's no more than our rights as consumers, and I'm sure you are correct, but at the end of the day success, for us and them, about people and relationships, not consumer law. It takes two to tango!

BEB

[Dave Hopkin]

There are other issue LMS's face too:

One in the UK is the difference in Business Rates between a retail shop and an on-line store, The retail shop has to business rates whist the on-line store is treated as a warehouse so pays much reduced rates

The Model Shop has too have a very large investment in stock, because we expect to see full shelves of gleaming goodies, the on-line store can simply back order when you buy something - they may have it in stock, they may not, you don't know when you buy

Sadly the more we shop on-line the less model shops there will be

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Yes - both good points Dave

BEB

[John F]

The most important thing, I believe, with the loss of LMS's is that they are not adapting to the modern age. Some have adapted; Als Hobbies, for example, but many have either not bothered to embrace the internet or have done so in a very superflous manner, resuting in poor online service and a lack of info.

Whilst I sympathise for them, they lose their livelihood and have to even give up a long running family business in the process, I cannot help but get angry at the same time. The whole world is out there and procurement is easier and easier, buying better quality or something exotic from your armchair. A LMS who does not adapt or refuses to stock what is popular at the moment is going to struggle.

It is good to see a LMS with models hanging off the ceiling, lovely radios on the shelves and lots of kits to look at but if their quality of basic balsa is poor, even after going through all of their stock, and they have two props on the shelves and they simply reply "Well, that is all I have" and not offer anything further I'll go to another LMS or online.

Which I did.

Instead of sticking with the stuff they have always done for the past 20 years, they either start to look objectively at what they do and start to compete for business or more LMS's go under.

Edited By John F on 10/09/2014 12:28:20

[Andy Shailer]

Rob please get your facts right,

I supported my LMS and spend around £100 plus a month and was gutted when he retired 6 months back, he wasn't the cheapest, but customer service was 100%, I now go 25 miles to the nearest LMS of which I do often!!! and I will carry on supporting this shop like I did the other one!!

I find your comments rather personal as you know nothing about me, you have been very negative from the beginning so I'm not surprised by your response!! I have had to fight this right from the start with Barnstormers models, I kept my word after I eventually had my refund to return the wings, I never got an email saying he had received them, so asking for the postage was asking to much I suppose, but like I said its not the money it would have been nice just out of courtesy to have had a reply to 1 of the 3 emails I sent, to me, if a company (not just LMS) cant offer good customer service why should they have our business, and just for the record I have had two very successful businesses the second being a 12 bedroom hotel, one thing I learnt is good customer service got me returned customer's!!

Shame on you, and shame on the clubs that support you!

I belong to two model clubs, of course the subject comes up about this issue from time to time, I'm not going to lie and say I'm happy with the service from Barnstormers Models, the lads will make up there own minds about the shop, but if someone was telling me about this happening to them, I personally would think twice about using them.

In nut shell I need the LMS to be here for a long time, but a LMS with good customer service!! the ones that have that.... will always be here, and deserve to be here!!.

Andy

[Rob Jones 2]

Okay, sorry if I sounded abusive.

We can accept it and move on, or make a crusade of it.

I read in the paper recently of a chap who bought a defective laptop from PC World, he fought for his rights for 20 years, lost his job, house, family,(probably his sanity, or maybe that was just taken on holiday by his wife when she went off with a new man) was finally vindicated in the High Court and was awarded the £600 instead of the £300 compensation he was offered. Whoopee!

 

Edited By Rob Jones 2 on 11/09/2014 23:20:19

Post edited for language and provocative content

Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 11/09/2014 23:27:52

Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 11/09/2014 23:29:12

[Wiltshire Flyer]

C'mon rob let it go 😶

[Rob Jones 2]

Posted by Wiltshire Flyer on 12/09/2014 15:10:27:

C'mon rob let it go ��

I will.I was just trying to be helpful.sigh....