Cuban8 Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 As consumers of ARTFs, we are protected by the sale of goods act which states that any item offered for sale shall be fit for its intended purpose. Well, that's all very well when talking about electric kettles, fridges, wristwatches etc but unfortunately we always seem to be on very dodgy ground when it comes to obtaining redress over a failure in an ARTF. Order a model by mail order and you can return it, no questions asked - go back to your local model shop with an airframe that's bent as a banana and (usually) you'll get a sympathetic hearing. BUT.....as soon as the model takes to the air we enter a whole different world of hurt.........."we've never had one break before"......"you've overstressed it"..................."used the wrong glue"................."sorry but these things happen". It's going to be difficult to discount any of the above responses, because how on earth do you prove otherwise? I used to work as an engineer in customer service (industrial stuff) and I know how crafty some people can be to 'try to get one over you ' and claim all sorts of rubbish in order to avoid paying up for their mistakes, so I understand that the model trade needs to be careful and rightly so. However, a little common sense and an interest in customer service will usually sort out the genuine victim from a scammer. A good friend of mine had a very expensive new ARTF model fail after a couple of gentle test flights (wing joiner failure) and the response from the well known UK supplier bordered on the comical in its ingenuity to deflect any blame on the model itself rather than bothering to investigate the issue. I won't go into details, but after several weeks of emails, photos and phone calls going back and forth, the best that could be done was that my mate had a new wing sent out, but the damage to the fuz, engine and very costly exhaust system was down to him! The model remains in bits..........Over a grand's worth of model gathering dust! Edited By Cuban8 on 10/06/2014 12:16:22 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Marsh Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 A local computer shop, Overclockers have a very strict returns system in place. Some people say getting a refund/replacement is a lengthy affair, but being computer components, which people built their own machines with, and possible damage that component due to misuse or non-understanding. I agree with their policy, as some numpty who fancies doing theirself damages a hard disc, say,takes it back and wants a refund. Then finding out it'd been dropped, not broke down, and the person non-derservadly got his money back and the shop losing out. Their policy is that it gets professionally tested and a report deeming the cause, either if it was dropped, or genuine failure for example. This area is the same as aeromodelling- a grey area regarding consumer rights, but trying to protect the company and customers from scammers and/or persons who don't know what they're doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Jones 2 Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 Posted by Andy Shailer on 10/06/2014 10:32:52: Rob understand where your coming from, but in this case the evidence is there to see even after the crash, the plane only crashed because the wing snapped due to an unfit structure part of the plane, If you brought a new car and after two outings of a few miles and the steering went I'm sure you would want something done about it, After spending nearly £200 and only two flights I definitely do! Andy I am sure what you say is true. But I don't think you'll get a court to agree. The manufacturer will say, we have sold 500+ models, we have strict QC, no-one else has had problems, ask this modeler if he has never crashed a plane before. But good luck. Edited By Rob Jones 2 on 10/06/2014 12:52:02 Edited By Rob Jones 2 on 10/06/2014 12:52:33 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly boy3 Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 Hi Rob, you may be right, but if "you don't try you don't get" in my opinion. Some people have a negative attitude to problems, and may be able wright off £200, but I am sure Andy can't, neither could I. Keep up the fight Andy, and if you fail at the end, you can say" I did my best". I am sure there are many modellers out who have been in the same position. Go for it pal. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Shailer Posted June 10, 2014 Author Share Posted June 10, 2014 Thank you fly boy, I'm a very keen modeller and take a look of care with the 20 odd models I have, yes £200 is a lot of money to just say " Oh well, Next ! " especially when the wing was at fault of which had nothing to do with me. The support is very encouraging, I feel I've been sold an unfit plane to fly and I just want it sorted, I paid in good faith but still no customer service! Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jez Harris 1 Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 Andy - persevere with this. Put everything in writing to the shop including photos and why you state the a/c was unfit for purpose. Be polite in your letter. Provide written testimonials from your witnessess who saw the wing fold in flight. Include a report from experienced builders stating the construction with the but joints, inappropriate length of wing joiner etc is unsafe. Include photos of correct structures showing the difference. Gently re-inforce the fact that they have supplied a product unfit for purpose under the Sale of Goods act. If this recieves no response then continue to the Small Claims court. You will win this. Jez - Been in this situation twice and won on both occasions! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Jones 2 Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 I'm not saying you won't get a refund, I'm saying you will have a battle proving your case in court. Most people who complain properly get compensation. I think you might be more likely to get a replacement aircraft rather than money as compensation if you are persistent. If I was in your place I would go for that. I agree £200 is a lot of money and if I was in your place I would not just let it go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 My boomerang trainer suffered a similar fate thread here **LINK** To cut a long story short, Returned the bits with covering letter to the place of purchase my LMS. New model received with mods to wing joining. Hope your claim is successful . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Shailer Posted June 11, 2014 Author Share Posted June 11, 2014 Once again a big thank you for the guidance and encouragement to see this through, it is really appreciated. Jez today a letter with pictures was posted to the model shop where the plane was purchased, as I've had no response regarding an email I sent last weekend. kelly thanks for the link, well done with a great ending! fingers crossed this turns out the same. Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Shailer Posted June 21, 2014 Author Share Posted June 21, 2014 Hi All, Just a update on this episode, I had a response back from the shop owner only after putting my case forward in writing as well as an email, the reply was about flutter ect and not all relevant to the fault on the plane. I replied with an email last Saturday and 7 days later, nothing!!!! what happen to good old customer service! So out of courtesy sent another email today to inform the owner I'm now taking it further. Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 Hi Andy, Try taking all the bits to your LMS, I did and the owner was guy with many years building and flying RC models. He took one look and agreed with me sending all the bits with the covering letter etc back to JP Perkins. May be worth a go?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 If this is your model **LINK** Then it clearly states the model should have a ALLOY wing joining tube ? Hopr this is of help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adrian lawrence 1 Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 Just remember that in law your contract is with the shop you purchased the model from, it is their responsibility to refund or replace to you. Don't let them fob you off if they offer to send the model back to their supplier as they are just wriggling out of the situation and pretending to be helpful. Adrian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Miller 4 Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 One more thing Andy, make sure you have a witness to the incident where the plane crashed who is able and competent to say the plane was being flown in a competent manner. Without such a witness you are on a hiding to nothing as it will be just your word that you did not just stuff the plane into the deck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuban8 Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 With decent quality video on almost all smart phones these days, it's probably worth recording the first few flights of a model (particularly one of many £££s). Difficult to argue against good video evidence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Member Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 [This posting has been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Shailer Posted June 22, 2014 Author Share Posted June 22, 2014 Hi all, Kelly the picture I took was just of the wing tube sleeve and how it didn't really go far enough into the rib, it did have the alloy wing joining tube, I wish the shop was local so I could take the wings along to the owners, but alas its too far up north for a trip in the car. John, the chairman of the flying club was watching the flight, and watched in disbelief when the wing just snapped upwards, and I have a statement from him about what he saw. Once again thank you for all the support, advice and encouragement. Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Shailer Posted July 4, 2014 Author Share Posted July 4, 2014 Update on the Issue with my plane, a couple of emails have gone backwards and forward, the owner of the shop has refunded me half the kit cost, this due to the fact I've only the wings left because the fuss ended up in a black bag, I was told because I cant send the whole kit back he is not obliged to give a refund, however as a good will gesture he was prepared to refund half kit price, it wasn't the out come I was hoping for, but at least I've got something back, which of course is better then nothing!! I will also be sending the wings back to the shop. Thanks lads for all the great advice, safe flying always Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Miller 4 Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 There springs to mind a little phrase which applies to an item sold in that 'it must be fit for purpose' this clearly was not due to its construction. Having said that, I would take the money and run. Taking the matter further will lead to expense and hassle anyting for a quiet life me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuban8 Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 Very unsatisfactory outcome similar to what my friend had (see my previous post 10/06/14). Really not impressed with some of the service being proffered by sections of our model trade. I wonder what would happen if the same thing had happened in a magazine test? Edited By Cuban8 on 05/07/2014 12:10:00 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Jones 2 Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 Well, I think it was a pretty good outcome. One lesson is that if you have dispute about a crash, keep all the bits. I stand by my belief that it is difficult to prove a crash is not due to pilot error. Even if it isn't, as in this case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuban8 Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 I think 99% of flyers will admit to a 'dumb thumbs' moment causing the loss of a model. If a model is destroyed because of radio failure (including batteries, servos, switches, wiring or whatever), then we usually accept the consequences and move on. What is unacceptable, is a brand new ARTF model (being flown within its design capability) failing structurally after a very brief time, and the indicator of cause being a defect in design or build quality. Moreover, the instances of retailers not taking these incidents seriously is doing nobody any good. I'm not saying that every weekend the countryside is being littered with debris from poorly built ARTFs, it clearly isn't - but where on a rare occasion a new model on its test flight does break up, then it need to be investigated properly and not dismissed out of hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Geezer Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 Andy, sorry to pour cold water on your belief that the shop owner was doing you any sort of favour at all. But if you were given a 50% refund all that said retailer has done is bid goodbye to any profit on the transaction and may well have claimed back the VAT, and set said refund against net profit. In reality your supplier should have refunded your money, or replaced said deficient item of goods (toaster, portable wireless or model plane) if he was any sort of businessman he would have then expected his wholesaler to make good his loss in order to retain his goodwill and his business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Shailer Posted September 9, 2014 Author Share Posted September 9, 2014 Hi All, Well I will not be using Barnstormers model shop again, and neither will the two model clubs I belong to, after I promised to send the wings back when I found a box big enough of which I did, it cost me another £12.98 to post the wings back to Barnstormers models, I've sent 3 emails to them asking for refund for postage and not even had a response!! Some businesses will never learn about customer service, its not about losing £12.98 its just the principle. I'm sure its their loss in the end!! Andy Edited By Andy Shailer on 09/09/2014 22:49:20 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Jones 2 Posted September 9, 2014 Share Posted September 9, 2014 Well, this is another LHS bashing that will eventually see them all go. They don't have the economic resources to make a total refund. Companies like HK are international and can pay for R&D for new models, amongst other things. LHS sell on and hope to make a 30% profit on sales - and they don't get too many sales as they can't compete on price. They survive on local expert knowledge and just being there at short notice when you just need a clevis or a servo lead. They have already given you a 50% refund! Shame on you, and shame on the clubs that support you! I hope in future when you just need a glow plug or bolt on the field, you have to sent an email to Asia to get it! Edited By Rob Jones 2 on 09/09/2014 23:22:02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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