Andy Shailer Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 After losing my Phoenix Accipiter a couple on weeks back ( my fault!) I decided to source another one, thanks to a model shop up north I found one, 3 weeks later it was ready for the maiden. After the maiden all trimmed out and flying lovely, fuel up for 2nd flight, after couple of minutes of flying her around I go in a loop as I'm coming out of the loop, a flutter sound of what seem a few seconds before the wing snaps off, of course the plane goes in!!! Gutted is not the word, nearly £200 for two flights!!! On picking up the all the bits and doing an autopsy it was found the wing had snapped in line with the wing tube, and T.E top and bottom strip had been butted up with no support what so ever where this joined, neither was there any support around the end of the wing tube and the tube was flush with the wing rib and not going through the rib a few mm like my last one. I feel that that I've been sold a unfit model to fly, I have pictures to prove of the weak part of the wing. My question is....... what is my rights?, do I have any? who is at fault? what can I do? I did phone the shop and wanted him to get a rep on the case, but the shop owners reply was there isn't a rep for phoenix Models, he did say that he would try and find out if there was one, but a week later I have heard nothing. Any help please. Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John F Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 Firstly contact Phoenix Models via email with your pictures on mailto:[email protected] or phone 01626 332287 and see what they can do for you. Edited By John F on 06/06/2014 09:44:34 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete B Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 I'd be inclined to return all the bits to the shop so the retailer can send it off to the manufacturer. If it's not suitable for the purpose intended, or there is a design or assembly fault, they should make amends. Some info here on consumer rights. There used to be an ARTF fault report form on the BMFA site but since the revamp, I can't find it now.... Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John F Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 I was just going to add - when contacting them let them know the details of the model shop who refused to help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon H Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 From your description I would take it up with the shop you bought it from. If they like it or not they sold it to you and thus its their problem. they can choose to get the uk importer to deal with you directly, but they still need to set that up. if you can find out who brings phoenix into the uk, and who specifically supplies your shop then you can go at it. My only word of caution is that if you powered the model with a 60 when it calls for a 40, or something along those lines, or did a full power dive out of your loop then you will most likely be out of luck. Its actually quite easy to flutter the wings/tail off of a large number of models, especially artfs as they tend to be built light. It would be interesting to see a picture of the departed wing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Gorham_ Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 I think the Phoenix Models that John F refers to above IS NOT the manufacturer of the Accipiter mentioned by the OP. The Phoenix Accipiter is one of a range of ARTF power models - I think they used to be distributed by logic RC but may not be now. The Phoenix Models linked to by John F is run by Stan Yeo and are well known for their slope soaring glider kits. Not much point in complaining to the wrong company..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John F Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 I blame google! Als Hobbies clearly links it to Phoenix Models. Edited By John F on 06/06/2014 10:23:34 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 Because we. as a group of consumers, happen to be pretty well informed regarding the distribution networks behind the LMS we have developed this idea of complaining to the distributor/manufacturer directly. I don't think this is at all a good idea! Jon above is absolutely right in my opinion. Your contract is with the LMS - they sold you the item, you paid them. Your avenue of redress is through them and it is their responsibility, under law, to respond in a reasonable way to your complaint. In my view there is far too much of LMS's hiding behind the distributor network and claiming to "know nothing", and that you'll "have to take that up with the distributor directly mate", or "nothing to do with us mate". Well, they should know. No you don't have to take it up with any one other than them. And it is their problem! And Trading Standards will take the same view! Look at it this way, suppose you went to PC World and bought a computer, then when it went wrong you went back to the shop and they said "Oh, nothing to do with us, you have to contact the distributor". You wouldn't accept that would you? So why do we take it off the LMS? BEB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamC Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 The Arccipter is made by this Phoenix Models. I believe that the UK importer is [or was] Macgregor. It looks as thought they are not importing their models any more [which is a shame as they have some nice kits] It might be worth speaking to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graeme jones Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 Andy - I've got one of these. It's only ever had three short flights due to problems with the motor. Can you post your picture of the damaged wing here? One thing I noticed when I bought it was that the wing joiner tube is very short for the size of the model. Did that contribute to your problem? Graeme Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Shailer Posted June 6, 2014 Author Share Posted June 6, 2014 Hi Lads, firstly thank you for all the very good advice, I will just put you in the picture a bit more, it was definitely not over powered, it had a SC 120 fs on the front, which is top end what they recommend, also I was on the side of dropping down the loop from the top and throttle was only 1/4 at the most when the wing snapped. The chairman of my club who saw it all said the wing snapped upwards and just watched in disbelief. As I said I had one before and been throwing it around for 18 months with only the undercarriage coming away as with most artf, apart from that no problems what so ever, oh and of course when coming out of a stall turn to late and causing tip stall, yep big write off, but just loved the plane to bits hence my desire to source another one. Graeme the plane goes where you put it, and is really lovely to fly, I would recommend reinforcing the undercarriage before you take her up again tho, I do think the wing tube should have gone though the rib a few more mm it seem to stop to soon and was flush with the rib. Pictures of the butted up T.E with no support at all, also when trying to put wing together for pictures, I'm not 100% sure that the bottom T.E gap joins up to be honest, even when I pushed the two parts together hard there is still a gap there!!! please give all you views. This picture is from the under side. Andy Edited By Andy Shailer on 06/06/2014 18:15:54 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Miller Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 Ye Gods, that is pathetic design. Everything ending in a sharp point in one position. The leading edge sheet looks as if it is far too soft. Then people wonder why I won't touch an ARTF with a bargepole. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Shailer Posted June 6, 2014 Author Share Posted June 6, 2014 Hi Peter, that's why my Bootlace has lasted so long Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adrian lawrence 1 Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 I totally agree with BEB. Your contract is with the LMS where you purchased the model from, if goods are faulty they are the ones to replace them. No matter what they may tell you it's their problem. If they won't respond contact them in writing and let them know you have retained copies for your records. If need be get trading standards involved and the small claims court. It's not expensive and it does work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graeme jones Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 Andy - your photos appear to show that there are joins in the trailing edge sheet and spars. I've just had a look at my Accipiter's wings and there are no joins. Spars are quite hard and correctly webbed, trailing sheet is medium and of adequate strength. graeme Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Bennett Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 That joining tube looks like it's cardboard. Is that the case? No wonder its totally inadequate connection to the rib failed. Edited By Allan Bennett on 06/06/2014 21:06:50 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Marsh Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 Not all ARTF's Peter are bad. Most are quite good and strong enough for their job. I've had and got a few Pheonix models, the Atlantis being one and that's had almost 10 years of flying, pulling out of a full power dive with no problem. It's just some designs are flawed, which doesn't necessary mean all ARTF's are weaklings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Shailer Posted June 7, 2014 Author Share Posted June 7, 2014 Hi all, Paul I have 4 Phoenix artf models and they all have been 100% great, hopefully this one was a one off!! There is email with pictures being sent to the model shop as soon as I posted this, I will see what joy I get, then I will post a letter. Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Gorham_ Posted June 7, 2014 Share Posted June 7, 2014 Andy - sympathies on that one. You seem to have been on the end of some pretty dodgy building on that model. I really don't like the look of some of the workmanship in there and no wonder it broke, it was a ticking time bomb. Hindsight is wonderful isn't it? You would never normally have been able to inspect those areas without stripping the covering or breaking the wing. I think you've got a cast iron case for replacement personally as that wing was clearly no good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Shailer Posted June 7, 2014 Author Share Posted June 7, 2014 Email sent with pictures, many thanks lads for all the advice, I will keep you informed. Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeS Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 It happens. I brought a Bluenose P51 which from the reviews built into a nice model. Mine however the wings where slighty to big to fit to the fuselage and the wing bolt holes would not line up. Sent it back and swapped for my P40B. Mike Edited By MikeS on 08/06/2014 07:14:33 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Shailer Posted June 8, 2014 Author Share Posted June 8, 2014 Hi Mike, If that's the Phoenix one, I have the same bluenose P51, nearly 2 years old and still looks and flies great. Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Jones 2 Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 Be realistic, complaining about a model aircraft crashing, in any court, small or otherwise, is not going to go anywhere. Crashing is unfortunately an occupation hazard with model flying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Miller Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 Posted by Paul Marsh on 06/06/2014 23:46:28: Not all ARTF's Peter are bad. Most are quite good and strong enough for their job. I've had and got a few Pheonix models, the Atlantis being one and that's had almost 10 years of flying, pulling out of a full power dive with no problem. It's just some designs are flawed, which doesn't necessary mean all ARTF's are weaklings. I wish I had a quid for every undercarriage that I have seen fall off in a less that perfect landing, not a crash, just a bumpy landing. And then I see weak points that could have been cured with a little sensible reduction in stress points. Look at the case in point. Proper structural design doesn't cost any more and doesn't add an weight or make the actual labour more expensive. So yes, not all ARTFs are bad but it is a heck of an expensive way of finding out which are good and which are bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Shailer Posted June 10, 2014 Author Share Posted June 10, 2014 Rob understand where your coming from, but in this case the evidence is there to see even after the crash, the plane only crashed because the wing snapped due to an unfit structure part of the plane, If you brought a new car and after two outings of a few miles and the steering went I'm sure you would want something done about it, After spending nearly £200 and only two flights I definitely do! Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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