A question for beginners

[Phil Winks]

Hi martin and welcome. I'd have to agree with Eric on the choice of contra rotating helicopters I have the hawks predecessor the bell 47 and it has been an awesome piece of fun just be aware that these machines need careful handling out of doors as they're very susceptible to more than a very gentle draught. the best place to fly has to be in a sports hall although an empty garage gives adequate space for hovering and limited manoeuvre practice

[Alan Dorrell]

Hello

Some of you may remember my contributions from earlier this year, so Hi to Alex, Eric and others. Found this thread only this morning, had a great time reading it. Alex I still have my Arising Star but haven't solo'd yet. 15 flights. My CAP 21 is finished except for engine and radio it is ARTF. Haveanother well on the way, a low wing trainer. I've invested in long johns and welly boots. Done some more on the 'Puss Moth' she's going electric but I need advice on size type etc of motor. She's 60 in span 600 sq. area and configured like a typical trainer. Flat bottom wing section and relatively light structure. Any suggestions. More anon.

Alan.

[Phil Winks]

Hi Alan to advise on the most likely power train for your moth we would need to know its All Up Weight not easy without motor I know but actual weight minus motor, e.s.c. and battery would be a starting point then there are several on here would be able to suggest what route is best to take.

Regards Phil 

[Alan Dorrell]

Hi Phil

Thanks for advice which I have received as well from other sources. I don't know how to get round finishing the Moth . I have no building article though it is probably a RCM&E design. A few more details, original was three channel, though I hope to add ailerons, and was powered by an OS26 four stroke.  Most of fuselage is open stucture and I would guess by comparison the finished model will weigh about the same as my Arising Star. Seagull's very similar E-Pioner  has a power system package and I have had thoughts about using that but I feel it is expensive and there. are other motors and ESC's just as good but cheaper. I am afraid that despite all my other skills and qualifications I have a dead zone in my brain when it comes to electrickery. I had thought I had cracked it if I chose a brushless outrunner 300 , but what is threehundred?

Anyway lots of time. Reading the contributions in the thread we have all experienced some if not all the same problems. Mine has been the matter of matching weather !!!! with opportunity and Bill the excellent instructor. But some days all six of his students have turned up !!!

I've not given up on some more flying this calender year But I hope I don't have t wait til next June.

Alan.

[Tim Mackey]

Hi again Alan - does this not help at all ?

[Kit Carson]

I went toa local club a couple of years ago to fly an RTF model. The so called instructor took the model and flew until the battery was fully discharged, Then told me that the controlls were set wrong for me and got a pair of pliers out and started to bend the wires(I am sure he didn't know what he was doing) anyway he sent me off to recharge the battery and again flew the model. Finally he gave me the transmitter and without any instruction expected me to fly it. He said turn the model which I did with the stick right over and of course it went into a dive he grab the tranny out of my hands and said nothing about what I had done  wrong. Then again flew the model until the battery run down. Having landed the craft then said I expect you want to go to have your tea now. I left that club never to return.Oh yes I was 70 ,years old and have been flying free flight for about 40years. Would have been nice if he had introduce himself as I never found out his name. Put me of , of clubs for ever> Though since then I have done a lot of indoor flying both free flight and RC fix wing and heli's

Kit

[Tim Mackey]

Thats a BAD story there Kit, and we all sympathise with you I am sure.

Luckily , all clubs / Instructors are not like that- where abouts in the world are you?

[Phil Winks]

Hi Allen I don't think the e-pioneer power train would be adequate as that airframe is some what lighter than the arising star. if memory servs the arising star is about  3kg. If your moth comes out in this ball park you'll need to follow this simple formulae 220 X AUW (in kg) ie: 220 X 3 = 660 this figure is a good giude to the amount of Watts output you'll need to power your aircraft this is approx and more details of this simple formulae is explianed in the article Tim pointed you to earlier in this thread and in dec issue of the mag in the "into the blue" article, which explains how to decide which !st figure to apply to your sum for the type of aircraft you have. The quick way to check likely power outputs of various motors is compare the Amps rating of the motor against its rated voltage so if your motor is rated for say 3s and 4s LiPo's the following sums become relevaant 3s = 11.1 Volts and 4s = 18.8 Volts so if the motor your looking for needs to have 660W output simply Divide the W's by the V's to give the required Amps ie: 660 / 11.1 = 59.5 A so to build in a saftey margin (always a good idea) you'd be looking for a 60+amp motor and that would also require a 6000Mah bty although if its rated above 20c you could get away with a 3000Mah but flight times will suffer however do the sum for a 4s or even 6s bty and watch those figures tumble. for instance 660W / 18.8V = 35.1A and for a 6s 660 / 22.2V = 29.7A now we're in more affordable affordable country (a 6s lipo can also be substitued with 2x 3s bty's and a series connector) to decide on your Electronic Speed Controller look to get one that will handle about 50% more than your motor is rated for and when all is set up check with a "Wattmeter" at this sort of level I'd suggest a seperate power supply for your Rx and servos from a UBEC powered from the flight bty alongside the esc preventing any power supply probs should you overload the esc. this subject is also covered in depth in the articles that tim pointed you at. Here's hoping this hasn't fried your brain

Now where to look for these I find that if he's got the stock the cheapest at the min is rob carpenter at giantcod.co.uk. there are others too BRC are good as are Brentford rc

Kit seriously sorry to hear about your 1st rc club experience and good to see you overcame many happy landings sir

[Richard Duvall]

I decided to have a go at model flying at the beginning of this year. I'd always like making things and was coming to the end of a model ship building project and thought it might be interesting to have a go at a plane. Having decided to build a plane it seemed logical to learn to fly. I did some research on the local clubs and found that training with the nearest clubs seems a bit hit and miss “just turn up and see if any instructors are there and willing to take you up”. Further research found a club that boasted a training organisation of two co-ordinators and a dozen or more instructors. So I joined the club. In practice, one of the training co-ordinators was inactive and the other tokk on training me himself. As we are both retried it suited us to meet at the flying field on Tuesdays and Thursdays but with the summer we've had the co-incidence of my availability, his availability and suitable weather has severely limited my flying time with the result that I am still very much a beginner!

As to equipment; I researched suitable trainer aircraft and had a shortlist of equipment based round a Ready2 with a shopping list in the region of £350. Someone at the club suggested I look on Ebay, which I did finding a job lot of trainer, radio gear and various accessories for a total of £150 from a guy who had been flying a while but was giving up due to family commitments. This seemed a good deal until the first flight where the instructor test flew it and was about to let me take control when the wings separated into two halves at about 200ft. Examination of the wing halves showed that they had not been glued together properly by the original owner. I bought a new ARTF kit of the same plane (Seagull Arising Star – only £42.99 at Inwoods) and made sure I glued the wings together properly.

Training has progressed since in fits and starts due to the vaguries of the weather, repairing damage sustained through leaning to land, and my Futaba 2.4 radio having to go to Ripmax to cure the Zero ID problem. On my last aborted training day (unexpected rainstorm) my instructor said he had planned to “unplug” me, so I think my training could be nearing its end.

I've now started building my first real plane, a Chipmunk. I've been keeping a build diary on this forum. I hope to have it ready for flying early next year by when hopefully I will have obtained my A Certificate.

[Kit Carson]

I live in Cannock Staffordshire

[Michael Arwas]

This is my first post on this forum so hi everyone!  Would just like to say that i still consider myself a begginer.  I started on an aerobird challenger, then quit planes to try helis. I have no moved back to planes and am flying a parkzone trojan successfully due to alot of sim time.  i have now just purchased two foamie warbirds, an alfa dora and a flying legends spitfire as well as a futaba 2.4 ghx 6ex.   However i am a bit nervous about joining a club due to the smallish nature of my models. i am worried people will dismiss me as flying 'toys'. can anyone offer their experiences of joining a club when flying electric models?

[Alan Dorrell]

Thanks again Phil and Timbo

I've spent a couple of days studying and am beginning to grasp and understand this electrickery. On advice I've ordered a motor, should arrive before weekend and can then work out better this V W A stuff as the one I've ordered should have a bit to spare on the most suitable power and prop arrangement even if the Moth finishes up a little on the heavier side.

Still fascinated by allyour adventures. Think on the whole I'm fairly lucky. Bill is a very good teacher. Nothing left to chance, although he doesn't use 'buddy box' system.  He stands close and talks you through the manoevres. The last lesson was on reducing power and compensating with elevator ready to prepare for landings.

In case the winter is as bad as the summer I've also sent off for what I hope is a much better flight sim. This is my christmas present to me instead of more radio gear as originally planned. My stable now has three absolutely fly-ready models. The Star, the Sky Rider and the Rond Loper. The CAP 21 is very ARTF and this Fun Tiger is progressing very well  and could be finished in two or three weeks. Then finishing the Moth is my winter building project. I'll put up some photos soon.

Alan.

[hotspur]

Hello David/Peter

I realise I should know this , but I am trying to build Peter Miller's Werewolf,  and there is only one wing half on the drawing. What do others do to  make the second half , without destroying the plan some way.?

How do you get the shapes onto the sheets of wood (formers , sides, doublers etc etc,) to cut them out ?

One time, seems long ago, I copied a plan at work , turned it over and transfered the shape to the wood, but that is no longer available to me.  Someone said ,"Push pins in the line " , but the plan would not like it too much I think.

Given all the plans in the mag., there has to be a proper method, hasn't there ? So, what is it please ?

Werewulf.    Does the tail seat fit between the fus halves or on top of them ?

No doubt I will hit other problems as I continue, but continue I will.

[Phil Winks]

not sure about the plan details David P but the way I get the second half of the wing is to have a local copy /print shop scan it and flip it prior to printing it giving me two wing plans one for each half as for copying a plan on to wood 1st photo copy the bit required and then iron the photo copy face down on to the wood the toner is heat activated and so leaves a print on the wood that you can cut too.

[hotspur]

Phil

Thanks for your response. Is That what we are supposed to do then.

So it's down to a print shop near you.

Maybe Peter Miller will know about the tail eh.

David

[David Ashby - Moderator]

Michael - you should be fine - if they're real aeromodellers then they'll appreciate all models big and small

[Phil Winks]

Hiya Micheal sorry missed your post earlier as David says you should be fine. at our club in taunton there is a real proliferation of smaller models most of mine are 36" ish one only 24 inch and for us its all about having fun safely and on really calm afternoons I can regularly be seen hovering my twister bell 47 contra heli of to one side of the flight line. and when we go indoors its all silverlit x twins and such like.

[Stephen Grigg]

I am a beginner and i am 64.I started earlier purely by chance.Th fist problem I found was the right model.I didnt particularly want to join a club I was flying in an unused field at the end of the day to chill out.  There are no proper model shops locally so I bought. an RCM&E to find something suitable.I found that the shops will happily sell you anything apart from BRC and Galaxy.I bought an Easistar(multiplex) recommended by slough models. AS it soared into the sky I marvelled at how smooth and stable it appeared AS it turned left then left again to return towards me I knew I had been advised well. As it flew passed me I admired the a/c I was flying in the  air,and as it flew sraight on when it was supposed to turn left I panicked but in a controlled English sort of way.AS it soared upwards without any effort from me it was time to getit down.Iwatched as it landed in a far away field  and then  having ensured my bearings to pinpoint where i,d find my £165 worth off  I Went. Nice conversation with some horses(arent they big) but alas no A/C.Isnt it amazing the amount of execise you get finding them!Weary legs Fading light had to give up.More searching over the next few days all unsuccessful.On the 6th day, a final search definitely beyond where it had landed I finally discovered it Buried 7 feet up in a hedge about 600 metres from where it was supposed to be.It was fine.Charged the battery in all it did was bleep. I had purchased it on the phone but drove to the shop for help.Armed with awedge to by my next project I entered Aladdins Cave.To a bollocking.After the interergation as to where Id bought ,When,how and why I was informed it couldnt have flownIn 1 minute of fiddling my baby breathed again,and I was informed a servo had blown.Why I asked,THe reply I dont know what youve don e with it.I purchased a new servo(no warranty then)and had loads of fun with and exercise .I did find diffculty in profiling the model in the air sometimes and the reverse direction when coming towards one.the repairing i enjoy and my next model was the Easi cub(Multiplex) THe first flight was a disaster.IT took off straight up.SO there I am looking straiht above me getting Vertico and my models doing a loop from my hand,and its doing it so fast.It hasnt the height to loop ,oh it has, its heading for the power cables,got to keep climbing,where did they come from anyway, Its missedthem why is it going so fast I cant keep up with it why is it so far away now just get on the ground.Why didnt you throttle back you prick,it was all to fast for me to think such an obviuos answer.A call to Galaxy abit of cyano and a new prop and Im ready for its  2nd Flight. INto the blue ,half throttle andits abeauty.My first meeting with Mr Thrust. Galaxy advised me to give it down thrust problem cured.I lost it when I lost its profile and tried to bury it without a spade Iloved that plane. I@d now joined a .club.   problem was there all so good,I cant fly in front of these experts Ill look a dick.My instructor had the answer.AS he took off and trimmed my aircraft he said to take control ,I said no you seem to be doing rather well yourself Ill watch,his reply For goodness sake fly your plane and dont be so stupid,best thing he did.Now to I/C  and it feels i'm starting over.\Difficulty keeping straight on take off,being gentle onthe controls,understanding why it crashed,being so obssesed at my age,its all fantasticWhat do I look forward to,buying a new I/C engine and opening the box,

[Phil Winks]

oh the joys of a steep learning curve  Welcome to modelflying Stephen be warned its infectious but then I guess you've found that out now also be aware that its incurable happy landings Phil

[Stephen Grigg]

Thanks Phil

[Phil Winks]

No probs Stephen

David that solution for the single wing thing is just my prefered method I'm sure others have thair own incuding holding the plan to a window and tracing the plan on the other side. (only works if there's nothing on the other side lol) a clever thing to do here would be to troll through the build blog section and see who else has built this A/C also perhaps start your own and you'll be suprised at the number of people who offer advice and tips. works every time for me

[Stephen Grigg]

Hi Dave an update on my progress or at the moment the backward step Ive taken.Yesterday I wrote off an electric Pioneer on take off.As a beginner it always happens so fast that its difficult to fully explain and understand what actually occurred.But it went up turning left on right rudder and when i gave it right aerolon there was no response except for it to go upside down and with up elevator becoming down slammed into the ground front first. Ithen flew my Protech Azzura with my instructor and he allowed me to land it successfully even though it was dead stick. After lunch another club member who flies the same channel offered to assist me .Not having taken off yet , he took off for me but on handing it over it was heading towards us in a dive at high speed,much faster than I am used to. I just didnt know what to do, up ,right ,off throttle Unfortunately I just froze and by the time he realised my deleamor and grabbed the controller it was to late and the model was totally destroyed.I have found that when someone else takes off for me Ineed a few seconds to do a left and right to get a feel of the models fuul place in the sky then i have full control, It was almost as if on the handover the model was flying so fast that i was unable to react to it.he did call and see me today ,he felt responsible for what occured but it left me  lacking in confidence because I dont understand why I was uable to make any decision at all.Ihave gone tothe model shop and bought a Boomerang, and Ive starteda thread on my prgrees but I wuold like to understand more of where it all went wrong yesterday

[David Ashby - Moderator]

Sorry to hear that Stephen, it is upsetting when things go wrong. It's difficult to comment on what happen having not been there but you will find that having a lesson with one of the advertised training schools will boost your confidence and allow you to recognise a good instructor when you see one.....

[Hamish]

Sorry to hear about your misfortune.

One of my first priorities was to get two transmitters and a buddy lead.  This was to ensure that control can be taken over by the trainer before an incident happens. It also meant that I was not reliant on plugging into somebody else transmitter.  At that time I had gone Sanwa way and the majority are on Futaba.

I have subsequently gone the Futaba way and have a T7CP, which should provide my needs for the future and I picked up a Skysport 4 for the buddy.

Suggest you  consider investing in a Buddy lead and try to get an instructor able to link with

[Stephen Grigg]

Thanks for that chaps