Converting undercarriage on a Trainer

[Chris Ireland]

I have been studiously scouring the 'getting started' and 'beginners' posts and noticed in several places that some people recommend starting out your fixed wing life with a tailwheel aircraft (high wing, of course). A lot of training type aircraft seem to be of the tricycle undercarriage variety, including the Seagull Arising Star which I have purchased, built/assembled and flown once, albeit with an instructor performing the all important departure and arrival phases.

Before I get to the take-off and landing bit of my fixed wing experience I was wondering if anyone could offer any advice about the best way to convert my tricycle undercarriage to a tailwheel setup. Is it just a simple matter of bolting a 'castor' type wheel on the back of the fuselage and removing the nosewheel, or is it more complicated than that ? I can find only one thread on the forum which mentions such a converson. It is entitled "C of G etc" and one of the replies suggests that the main wheels should be positioned more forward to prevent the model tipping over. Is it sufficient to just bend the legs forward by a suitable amount or should I be thinking about rechannelling the mounting slot and physically moving the whole assembly with its attendant strengthening/bracing problems ?

I have read David's excellent article on getting started in the New Beginners area, and the replies to it suggesting that if you start off with a 'trike' your skills are a bit sharper due to the unforgiving nature of the beast (as far as learners are concerned) . I have not yet decided if I am going to do the conversion but, being the sort of person who likes to have all the facts to enable informed decision making, I thought I'd put some feelers out to help me decide. Thanks in advance 

[Former Member]

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[birdy]

I thought the thing to do is to bolt the undercarrage to the firewall, and then add (dont ask me how) put on a tail wheel. I think though a tricicle u/c is better then a tail dragger anyway!

[Chris Ireland]

Thanks Eric, you've confirmed my thoughts that this is not just a simple job and as such I think I will abandon the idea of a conversion. I've looked at the restraining structure already in place and the idea of replicating it further forward in an already finished fuselage does not fill me with glee. (PS. I'm obviously not very good with this english lark as I was trying to imply in the original post that I was starting off with a 'trike' not finishing up with one, sorry if I didn't make myself clear.)

I think I'll consider this thread closed and retire to my darkened room before the 'daft idea' fairies decide to attack me again.

[Myron Beaumont]

On a taildragger the main U/c wheel bottoms should meet the ground  about 30 degrees in front of the C of G.On a 3 wheeler (trike as you put it )  the main U/c wheels should be about 10 degrees behind the C of G Simple isnt it .I learnt on trikes & learnt to use the rudder connected to the nose wheel at the same time for a perfect take off. I personally recommend a trike _you can learn & perfect the art of ground taxiing as well .Unless of course your rudder is connected to your tailwheel (in the correct manner of course) But it's not as responsive

[Bruce Richards]

I converted my Boomerang Trainer to a tail dragger and found it was very easy. There is a thread here somewhere but I can't find it at the moment. Here are some pictures. Please ask question if you want more info.

pic 1

pic2

pic3

pic4

pic5

[Chris Ireland]

Myron & Bruce, Thanks for the info and pics. My Arising Star looks to be very similar to the Boomerang and the pictures give me a very good idea of what is involved. I can see how it could be achieved on my kite...... now, do I want to proceed along these lines? Only time will tell, but at least I have most of the info needed to make the decision.  Thanks

[Rick Tee]

My advice is don't do it, tricycle is easier for take off and landing and there are some traps you can fall into doing a conversion. Learning to land is probably the toughest challenge for a beginner, combining that with learning to 3 point land is just making things harder for no good reason. The only reason for a conversion would be if the firewall is weak and breaks on a heavy landing, i've not seen this problem with the Seagull Arising Star we have a few at our field and some have survived multiple heavy landings. The old saying 'if it aint bust don't fix it' applies here me thinks. If your having problems on a grass field fit bigger wheels.

[Chris Ireland]

Hi Rick, Thanks for the advice. Am not currently experiencing any problems landing as I haven't done one yet. I'm just getting my ducks in a row in case I decide to go down the tailwheel route. The replies so far would indicate that this is not the preferred route for a beginner so I would be foolish to ignore it.

I've just crashed my chopper today, largely due to having my first outing outside on grass. The training wheels dug into a rough bit as I was arriving a bit faster than I should have been due to getting out of shape after getting caught by a gust of wind close to the ground... not much damage, but a salutory lesson in not getting impatient... should have waited for a flatter day and flatter strip of grass... ho hum!

I guess, in one way or another, most crashes have a high element of self-infliction, and it's only self-control that stops you ploughing unnecessary money into the ground... especially if you are not a farmer! (newbie now grabs yellow pages in attempt to find local self-control classes)

[Rick Tee]

Np, sorry to hear about the heli, can't help you there, though the mechanics and the skill needed to fly them fascinate me, i have no interest in learning to fly one. Prolly right about the accidents, impatience kills models. But it is hard having your first and wanting to learn to fly so you can go solo.... Hell even after many years of flying many, including me, will risk a model in unsuitable conditions to get a fix. Good luck with the self control classes, I don't have any lol.

[flytilbroke]

On grassy strips which are less than smoooooth (maybe most of them?) I and a heck of a lot of other guys have found the tail dragger conversion to help a LOT. The nose wheel gets a lot of pounding and can and does dig into any dip (read hole) in the grass causing the model to tip at an angle.

Big wheels will help a lot too. With fixed wheels the ground handling suffers of course but mostly in trying to "taxi". Fit a steerable tail wheel and there is little difference for take-off or landing control. I have "skids" on the tail of some of my models, and for take off or landing I do not nose over as mentioned, at least not often.

[Chris Ireland]

Hi flytilbroke, I guess I'll have to have a serious talk to the guys at our strip (Hanworth, West London) about how smooth the patch actually is. Larger wheels do sound like a sensible precaution though. Currently they are at manufacturer supplied 2&1/2in(6cm) diameter, any suggestions as to an alternative/preferred size?       I guess I'll only be able to asess it myself when I've got some practice in, which at this rate feels like it may be next year sometime. I'm away for a couple of weeks at the end of July so it will probably be ideal weather when I'm not here....

Rick, just checked the chopper out and it looks like I got off lightly, just a broken blade holder and a bent main shaft.. about 5 quids worth... could have been much worse.

[inspector9566]

hi Chris i totally agree with <a href="http://www.modelflying.co.uk/localiser/member.asp?sp=&v=6&MemNo=402" title="Visit flytilbroke member profile">flytilbroke</a>  I still have my arising star after 18 months i love it to bits and didnt get on with the tricycle arrangement so i converted it to a tail dragger very simple to do i rechanneled the main leg flush with the leading edge of the wing but it needs to go forward another inch as i have to hold up elevator when on the ground dont forget to reinforce the fuse to fix the undercarrage to, the tail wheel is simple i used a steerable one with a flexable snake of the rudder servo but you must come off the opposite side to the rudder pushrod, route the snake out of the side of the fus at the rear under the elavator on the opposite side to the rudder horn to make sure that it all works the correct way  mine flys the same way and ground handling is greatly improved and i didnt need to change the c of g.

try not to run before you can walk put the heli away and learn the basic on a fixed wing first as thay are two totally differant ways of flying unless you are one of those clever blokes who can rub his tummy and pat his head at the same time

good luck with your lessons

[Chris Ireland]

Hi Guys, as I am about to be absent for a couple of weeks just when the weather looks to be getting better I decided to go to the field today and 'give it a go'. Well, I'm now a 'veteran' of one take-off and zero landings.

Almost as soon as I had got off the ground, quite successfully with a minimum of drama if I am immodestly permitted to say, the wind started to get up and do some of those 'gusty' things that wind seems to be keen on doing. It all got to be rather more exciting than I had expected but I managed to survive one inversion and a dive. Shortly thereafter it was the second flip and dive which put paid to all thoughts of converting the undercarriage from one layout to another.

I am now the proud posessor of a truncated, bicycle-undercarriaged fuselage and a monocycle engine and fuel tank combination. I can't see how, even with an injection of superhuman skill, I'm ever going to get either machine off the ground in the near future..... whatever their wheel arrangements are. On the positive side. I'm looking forward to trying my repair skills during the winter but for now I think it's another visit to the 'what's suitable for a newbie' threads on the forum and a refresher course at the self-control school. I think I've just got the running/walking sequence confused.

Another positive... all electronics and servos have checked out ok, so I've got something to be thankful for. There were no pedestrians, dog walkers or children at the site so no third parties were in any danger..... I would not have attempted my first 'solo' if there had been. 

[cymaz]

Go flying until you are really proficient and then fly some more to gain experience. The convert to a tail dragger. I was on a tricycle for 18 months before  I changed.

So go and enjoy it but don't get hung up on it until you start getting bored with the a tricycle - then change.

Fly to enjoy

[Former Member]

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[Myron Beaumont]

Eric

Crashing! ! !  Fun !  ! ! Obviously Eric you've had a lifetime of misery & failure .I am going to tell you all I have had one mishap 'cos I mis judged the distance away of a dry stone wall in Cornwall and took the wing off my Curare.Within minutes I was flying again  

& I'm self taught (dont mention the war !)  Bl---   y A's & B's 

 PS Can't decide whether to buy a loaf of bread or send off for a servo from HK

Guess who ?

[Bruce Richards]

Eric,

I think what you say is important and was the most important lesson I learned. Enjoy your crashes its all part of the hobby. I think through everyone of my crashes and work out what each one has taught me. I do a lot of thinking and learn some lessons far too slowly. I think to enjoy this hobby you need to be an optimist.

[Former Member]

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[Myron Beaumont]

[Chris Ireland]

Bruce & Eric,

I've spent the last two weeks on holiday thinking, quite often, about the lessons to be learned from my 'tail hanger' landing and have come to a couple of conclusions.

1. My memory if the event is complete rubbish, and of no practical use.

2. It happened so quickly, producing the first conclusion, that I can't pull any lessons out of the sorry incident... apart from getting the walking/running sequence correct.

Hopefully my next 'damaging arrival', which I am realistic enough to expect sometime in the future, will be slow enough for me to gain some insight into the process.

I do, of course, take your comments onboard and will action them appropriately. Thanks. 

[Kelly]

I have converted my Boomerang to a tail dragger and it is a lot easier to take off from grass. It has more prop clearance and the take  off run is shorter. I have a small tail wheel which castors and I have no problem keeping it straight.

I am a born again model flyer , this was my first take off with a tail dragger in 30+ years.

 My other models being the Ripmax Spit and 109 both hand launched and belly landers.

 

[Bruce Richards]

Well done Kevin it looks good. I always found my Boomer was better as a tail draher than a trike.