Climbing out of turns issue

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

I find that student pilots are often nervous about landing! It's only natural. But a significant part of that nervousness can be tackled I've found with a simple exercise.

A big part of the problem, as I see it, is that we fly the student round "two mistakes high" pretty well all of the time. We instructors feel comfortable up there! But the student is getting very little experience of flying the aircraft close to the ground. In fact its quite likely that the only time they fly with the model and the ground in their field of view at the same time is when they doing a landing. This makes them nervous.

The student pilot needs to gain confidence at low altitude and come to believe and accept that, by-and-large, the model behaves pretty much the same at 6ft off the ground as it does at 150ft off the ground. The way to do this is to fly lots of low passes. While flying circuits, start by doing a descending turn into wind, reach a set altitude, stop the descent and fly-by over the strip at that height. Then do a climbing turn out for the downwind leg. And repeat!

Start gentle - just bring the aeroplane down to say 50ft. When that is OK and the student feels comfortable, come down to 25ft, then 15ft. If you can, and it's not too bustery a day - try and do some fly-bys at head head - 5 to 6ft. This boosts the student pilot's confidence enormously. And once mastered - well landing is only a case of cutting the throtlle from 6ft over the threshold and putting in a nice flair!

I've seen this approach transform the landing performance of a lot of early stage pilots - turning them from someone who dreaded every landing, because they feared it might be the aeroplane's last, to flying the model in with confidence and precision.

BEB

Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 17/12/2016 20:32:27

[Colin Anderson]

Thanks for that BEB. I think my initial trepidation towards landing was due to a few factors, while I was learning. Although we have a huge field to fly over (we are lucky to have a farmer's field, away from the public), the actual strip, in a learner's eyes, is short and narrow. The approach to the strip is flat to the right, but appears uphill from the left - because of the dip in the field; strangely I find this dip beneficial both for take offs and landings, finding it much harder to land from my right. During the summer the field is planted with crops and rape, in particular (which was planted in my first year at the club) is quite tall, so meant modifying the approach. Also, when I started, I tried to fly in all conditions, on the grounds of I'd never get any practice at all if I waited for calm days. Flying in windy conditions was good practice, but did make landing more difficult, especially as there was also the turbulence coming from the trees behind the strip. Missing the strip, dumping the plane into the crops and killing a Wot4 didn't do much for my confidence. Incidentally, I could never really gel with the Wot4 (even though it was fun to fly) and I crashed it and cracked it several times, before eventually totalling it. I much prefer building my own - to which most of the Wot4's internals were donated to my latest plane.

However, lately things have begun to come together. I haven't stopped having mishaps entirely, but they are less frequent. I'm picking relatively calm days to fly at present. The crops are now very low and with no leaves on the trees there seems less turbulence from the tree side. This means I can get on with practice relatively relaxed and not fighting the elements. When things go wrong it's because my enthusiasm got ahead of my skills! As a result, my confidence is improving, I'm getting more practice (less time spend building/repairing, more time flying) and I'm really enjoying myself.

I know about flying two mistakes high, but, to be honest I find it far easier and far more satisfying flying one mistake high; I usually take my plane up higher though, when I perform Immelmann turns (my favourite manoeuvre). In calm conditions I'm quite happy now overflying the strip at heights of a lot less than 5 feet and even do touch and goes. I'm now finding that I can land equally well in both directions - although, up until recently I was using the entire length of the strip to do so! However, on my last flying session I was able to put the plane down exactly where I wanted it, rolling to a stop practically in front of myself.

Of course, at some point I've got to master windier conditions. I have flown in windier conditions; in fact, before I went solo, my instructor let me practice holding the plane against the wind. As my confidence improves and I gain more practice , gaining better skills, I'll begin tackling more challenging conditions. The day I feel confident to land a model in most conditions will indeed be a happy one! 😊

Edited By Colin Anderson on 17/12/2016 22:56:16

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Ah yes - I can see your issues - not the easiest of strips obviously. But then the plus side is; master that and no where will hold any fear for you!!

You are doing exactly the right things - keep it up. Great stuff - you'll be a veteran before you know it!

BEB

[Colin Anderson]

Cheers BEB. I wish you goodnight and happy flying. I've an early start tomorrow; out on my motorcycle with my local advanced group. 😊👍

[Chris Walby]

Colin,

There are many more experience guys here than me, but as someone newish to the hobby I learnt with a foamy electric Riot which was great for getting to grips and beyond although I found it all too quick when attempting blustery cross wind landings!

I then bought/assembled a BH Speed Air (as the airframe was only £75) on the basis if it was totalled all the hardware (servos/motor/ESC/RX) could be transposed to a new donor at low cost.

My point is that due to the additional weight, low wing and well sorted airframe its my choice in all but very poor conditions. Its been a great platform for progressing to the B and has got me into and out of plenty of learning experiences...some well below the 2 mistakes high guide...but that's all part of the learning curve!

I agree with BEB and wish I had done more of the low passes in the early days and in my book its only human to make a mistake, just don't make it a second time!

[Colin Anderson]

Hi Chris,

Oh I never make the same mistake twice (well not so far), I just keep finding new ones! 😂

From day one I've always felt reasonably happy with my flying and feel I progressed quite well in that area; not perfect by any means, but I can manage loops, stall turns and Immelmann turns - I've even managed inverted briefly!

I'm reasonably happy with my take offs, although sometimes keeping the plane straight as it trundles over the grass can be fun! It does seem to me that my plane is reluctant to leave the ground, at least in calm conditions, so my take offs tend to be flat and shallow; the Wot4 used to leap off the ground! Landings always used to scare me, but I'm getting used to them now and actually enjoying them.

When I first joined my current club (Maidenhead) I began with my IC Flair Cub, but my instructor felt it wasn't that suitable and it suffered a crash (it's fine now). My instructor gave me an IC Wot4, but again this was considered a little frantic, so I was leant a the club's foam Wot4; I knocked the U/C off this several times, but it survived and I gained my solo with this.

Although I build my own planes I was encouraged to buy my own Wot4, as the time I was spending repairing my planes was interfering with practice. I've got to be honest, I was reluctant to buy a foam plane; I don't really like them and consider them a lot of money for what they are (but I guess that depends on your values). That said, once trimmed (naively I expected it to fly straight out of the box) it was easy to fly and I could perform certain manoeuvres with far better finesse than my current models. Rolling the Wot4 was just a matter of opening the throttle and throwing over the aileron stick; I tried the same on my RCM&M Chapter One and buried it into the ground! Within 6 months I'd killed the Wot4 and all the internals are now in Chapter One (although I've since put different motor in it).

To those that own, fly and enjoy foam planes, I apologise, but they are not my cup of tea and having tried them once I will not be tempted again (although in truth I wasn't tempted in the first place, but persuaded).

[Colin Anderson]

By the way. Although we've wandered away from the original post, I'm quite enjoying our little conversation here guys, so thanks. I hope my ramblings aren't too tiresome. 😊

[Mike T]

The key of course, to enabling a student to fly lower is a buddy-box. The instructor can let the student get far lower, with much less stress on both parties! Your interventions can also be more subtle, which helps to build student confidence, reducing the number of "I have control's" called.

I did (do) most of my instructing 'one box', which was (is) far from ideal. Back in the day when it was just Futaba or JR, it was easier to lash-up a buddy lead, but it was still a bit of a faff getting the controls harmonised. It's much worse now with all the proprietary 2.4 systems, though with Spektrum, there is a feature which allows instant (wireless) replication of one plane's set up from one tx to another.

Colin - I may be wrong but your post above gives the impression you are doing much of this alone. Although you appear to be 'solo', I would strongly recommend getting an experienced pilot alongside to give you some cues and bolster your confidence.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Looks to be doing o.k to me, enthusiasm is there, confidence is building and most importantly he's thinking for himself and analysing what happening in flight and how do i do it better.

John

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Totally agree about the buddy box. Generally I am very reluctant to take a student pilot up without one - at least until they have competed a few flights without the need for me to intervene at any point.

Chatting is good Colin - no problem with that!

BEB

[Colin Anderson]

Hi Mike,

While building my Cub, I began practicing using RealFlight 7.5; once I had finished my plane I learnt via buddy box. As you say, with 2.4 it was a bit of a fiddle, especially as I had a Futaba and my instructor had a Spektrum (I got a Spektrum of my own eventually, so things got easier).

You're quite correct, I do most of my flying alone. I fully understand what you're saying, but I actually prefer it that way. I know this must read as counter productive and no doubt counter intuitive; however, when I feel that people are watching me that makes me more nervous! I've actually made most of my more silly mistakes while people were watching me! The majority of the time I feel reasonably confident, but this gets dented somewhat when I make a spectacular mistake - not dissimilar to making mistakes on a motorcycle. When I'm practicing alone all my concentration is on what I'm doing, rather than what others might be thinking.

This is not to say that I don't fly with others, as I have done on several occasions. There is a mixture of fliers at all levels at our club and everyone is helpful directly or is willing to share knowledge and experience. Our have to say that our club instructors are excellent and are always willing to lend a hand. I generally ask the same questions of them as I ask on here, but it's nice to get a range of opinions - simply because one might suggest something that others haven't thought of or perhaps put things a different and perhaps a more understandable way. To me though, learning is very much about making the occasional mistake and learning from it (thereby gaining experience) and picking as many brains as possible. 😊

[Colin Anderson]

Thank you John, BEB, Mike et al. 😊👍

[Chris Walby]

Hi,

Sort of on topic....the off again for me here!

I am lucky enough to have flown 4 foamy and 5 balsa different types and each has their own specific traits (which is part of the fun!) and what it gives me is the experience I would have not gained with one or two models.

The Speed Air is tricycle which behaves very different to a tail dragger and way less lively than my son's P51 (which just wants to nose over or turn left), but the fun (might not be at the time...more cold sweat!) is it give you experience without the bin liner. I have flown the Speed Air in quite poor conditions with the knowledge that its a tough old boot that lets learn, but does not bite too hard should I get it wrong. If its blowing a gale I get the EPP/packing tape delta out and give the sticks some exercise!

One thing I have noticed is that some models never quite fly the same after a major event as they did before despite putting everything back, (subtle changes in balance/rigidity/alignment) so you might never get it back to where it was.

off topic!

I agree flying on your own is good for practice, but to progress its worth spending time with someone who can "instruct" as they identify things you would not necessarily spot on your own and can help you out.

Lots of people have negative things to say about the B test "bunt" and I tried and tried to crack it.. convinced it was the plane an instructor borrowed the sticks and did three in a row spot on...So once I knew the plane was good I ironed out my tendency to add a bit of aileron where it was not needed!

[Colin Anderson]

Thank you fir that valuable insight, Chris. You are of course right in what you say, but it's also sometimes about how you feel. I know it's kind of silly, but I never like to be AV burden on people. In addition, although some might find it hard to believe, I can be quite shy! Yeah, I know, too much information!

Back when I was younger I taught myself how to build models (didn't everyone back then?) and then I taught myself to trim and fly them, from gliders, rubber, FF power and finally C/L. It just kind of works for me; it's also how I learnt to ride a motorcycle and drive a car - trial and error. I never could afford R/C back then. I might well have gone it alone in R/C too, but times and rules have changed and I don't have deep pockets!

[Colin Anderson]

Took the plane up to the farm today, to our club's flying strip. Although conditions weren't flat calm - 7 mph winds - for the most part the wind, when it did blow, was down the strip. Taking into account all the advice I've been given here and on the BMFA site I decided to leave the down thrust alone, fly the plane and analyse the flight characteristics.

This is my finding. Previous flights with this model, prior to getting the trimming and CG correct, showed it had a tendency to climb at the slightest provocation. This characteristic led me to not applying elevator during a turn. As you'll all know, as a plane banks into a turn, the nose drops and the plane picks up speed; naturally, as the plane picked up speed it climbed, before losing speed again and levelling out. So today I applied a touch of elevator partway through the turn; this resulted in the plane completing the turn at about the same level it went in - no "zooming"! As throttle regulates height and elevator modifies speed, perhaps this ought to have been obvious to me.

That pretty much solves my problem. My plane does have a tendecy to want to climb at the slightest provocation, but now I've modified my flying (doing it the proper way) it's easier to fly. In spite of the slightly higher wind speeds I enjoyed today's flying session, even if I did muff a couple of landings by tipping over as I came to a stop - the strip was muddy (that's my excuse and I'm sticking to it!).

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Oh excellent Colin! This is how we progress as pilots - step by step and understanding grows. The great thing is it never stops, as I said above we are all learning all the time! This hobby has almost infinite variety and depth - always something new. Its what keeps us doing it!

Well done, it feels good when you bottom out one of these things doesn't it and master the skill needed?

BEB

[Colin Anderson]

Thank you, BEB. Wishing you a happy Christmas and good flying in the new year. 😊

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

And to you too Colin!

BEB