Six Nations Rugby Union 2017

[Don Fry]

History lads, gone, finished. Your next performance matters. My lot will hopefully be looking to, and hopefully delivering a reality check, AKA gutting Scotland.

It is unfortunate that Scotland have their tails up.

But all the press reports, insults, are just wind.

Mr Sleath, I enjoyed your missive.

[Nigel Day]

I was very disappointed, and a little surprised, with Eddie Jones' comments. It seems that he's in a minority of one as well.

The guys on the BBC highlights show (Guscott and Davies et al) thought that England were just naive and slow to learn. So do I! Why did it take them so long to learn to pick and go? We'd soon have had flowing rugby then. Apparently when the NZ team 'Cheifs' tried it they had to abandon it quickly because the other team starting picking up and going straight away.

Unless England improve I can't see them beating Scotland, let alone Ireland in Dublin. They've got out of jail three times. After their games before the 6 Nations they've been a huge disappointment.

Come on England, pull your socks up!

Edited By Nigel Day on 27/02/2017 20:21:44

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Take a look a test rugby world wide, winners often dig in and win/get out of jail, i'll take ugly victory over glorious defeat any day...Guscott n Davies ? pair of clowns who view there own past performances/records through tinted glasses and they've coached who ?

Beat Scotland and we'll do the G/S.

John

[Michael Ramsay-Fraser]

Posted by Donald Fry on 27/02/2017 19:41:08:

History lads, gone, finished. Your next performance matters. My lot will hopefully be looking to, and hopefully delivering a reality check, AKA gutting Scotland.

It is unfortunate that Scotland have their tails up.

But all the press reports, insults, are just wind.

Mr Sleath, I enjoyed your missive.

Got to disagree with you, Donald.

One of the great things about rugby is the ability of the crowd to mingle irrespective of which team they support. The banter and friendly rivalry is all part of the fun. If EJ keeps on insulting other teams, how long will it take before that animosity transfers to the stands and segregation has to start. Last thing rugby needs is to go down the same road as football and if Jones keeps on insulting other teams, thats just whats going to happen.

[Nigel Day]

You're right John that the sign of a good (great?) team is that they can win ugly and from seemingly lost positions. That doesn't change the fact that England aren't playing anywhere nearly as well as they were in the Autumn internationals. They've been lucky so far that no-one's been able to play really well against them but it'll be a real test against Scotland and Ireland.

They've got the pedigree and the players but they need to start better and not make so many mistakes.

And EJ is still wrong, whether you like Guscott and Davies or not.

[MattyB]

For me (even as an England fan) EJ's comments in the aftermath did not show a great deal of class. I suspect they came mostly from embarrassment - he is known as being the king of preparation, so his players asking the referee what the rules are around the ruck must have been pretty cringeworthy for him. The reality is that Italy were operating within the laws, laws which every player at international level should know inside out - England should not have been surprised, and they should have been able to work out a tactic to counteract this in seconds, not wait until halftime to get it from the coaching staff. His pre-match comments are not doing him any favours either; would this tactic have been used if he had not threatened to pulverise them Italy?

However, all that said I actually agree with EJ that a tweak to the rules might be of value here. Rugby is in the entertainment business, and the spectacle of Italian players, arms outstretched standing on the England side of the tackle preventing the scrum half delivering the ball did nothing for the spectacle in the first half. Yes England should have counteracted it by picking and going up the middle, but is that the game fans have paid £70 a ticket to see? It was kind of fun as a novelty for 40 mins, but do we want it to see this used as a tactic on a regular basis? Not for me. The ruck area needs to be contested by both sides, that way the guys dragged in leave space and opportunity for others.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

I already agreed Eddie should have kept stum, the Autumn has been and gone, give credit to those we've played for the rugby they've played, they're not there to make life easy for opponents.

Eddie/England got embarrassed, we still scored six tries and got bonus point, how's it furthered Italian cause ?

We also have some very big names missing and the lads who've come in have maintained the wining habit, maybe some are expecting too much and not giving credit where it's due ?

Crowds ? well two things, they'll continue to mingle come what may, because that's part of the culture. Secondly Football crowds ? careful you don't go Insulting others, yes there's an element who look for trouble, they are by far out numbered by decent people who'll mingle and have a beer together, how do i know ? coz i've been there and done it for years with my wife n kids.

John

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

And another thing

Had England done this, the Whole of the Northern Hemisphere would have condemned us.

Pick n Go ? yep very simple, don't lets be denying the experts et al plus some of yourselves were pouring over rule books before stating the blindingly obvious though. Me i was baffled.

[Nigel Day]

As I mentioned earlier, the antidote to the non-rucking is pick and go. It works well enough for teams to start rucking enough. It shouldn't last long enough to stop the game from being entertaining.

The ruse was a legal attempt by a struggling team to level the playing field - in order to win. They shouldn't have been allowed to make it work.

The tactic has been used before and in relatively high-profile games. The England coaching staff should have recognised it, known how it was countered and got that message down to the pitch quickly. You might have hoped that some of the brighter/senior players would have known how to counter it too. A number are touted as having 'great rugby brains' after all.

Yes, I was flummoxed too - but I'm an ordinary fan who knows less of the rules than the players and don't watch that many games beyond England and Lions game plus a few Premiership/European ones. The England management should have done a bit better - and so should the England team.

We're only a couple of really key players down and much is made of our very strong squad where the coach says he's able to pick almost any 15 from them and still have a full-strength team. Watson and at least one of the Vunipolas would make a difference - but we're hardly hobbled without them are we?

The coach and the players admit that they're not playing that well. I'm just saying the same thing.

Do I think that they can, and will, beat Scotland and Ireland? Yes!

[Don Fry]

Right working back.

Marty, agree broadly, but why a rule change. This is a tactic that can't work. Place 4 players in front of the ball, and your are left with 11 players to defend the attack on your line. Find the holes time and fill your boots for the ball carriers. It lasted for 40 minutes because England allowed it. You don't need an offside line in rugby because the players in front of the ball place themselves out of the game. And if the ball carriers ensnare a defender in the collision, an offside line forms, and the scrum half makes sure an offside player interferes with play, and a referee will be generous, if you are being cute with the rules, you can't expect generosity from him if to transgress. He is a referee, not a coach.

Nigel, you can only beat what is in front of you. I agree they are living dangerously, but I am no more worried than usual when you are going up against a team rated 5th in the rankings in a fortnight.

And Michael, Southern Hemisphere rugby is more acerbic than ours, it's still wind, intended to rattle cages. But I can't see it changing the nature of a rugby croud. I have seen what happens to someone judged to overstep the mark, remember a large proportion of that croud are ex players, carrying their code of conduct.

Eddie Jones was out thought. And his players were shown to be naive. And he was seething with anger. Covering it up, but still lashing out. Great entertainment.

My main worry, this can effect the players, and I hope the reaction is philosophical, rather than anger resulting in reversion to headless chicken mode.

Edited By Donald Fry on 28/02/2017 09:49:13

[Nigel Day]

Let's see if it's still 2nd and 5th after the 6 nations is over Donald.

[Erfolg]

Those who suggest a rule change, are probably correct, in that it is necessary for both the game as understood and the referees ability to manage the game.

I can understand the Englands team confusion. Firstly there were Italian players in positions totally unexpected. To those playing it would not necessarily apparent straight away why they were not off-side. Once that was worked out, the next surprise that some of the Italian players were less than 1m from the ball, certainly less than 2m. All this during the heat of a game.

I thought the seeking of clarity by the England team players was well done. The referee who escaped any criticism, seemed very reluctant to spell out his interpretation of the rules as he was applying them. Preferring to suggest that the England players were seeking coaching advice.

The main reason i think the rule has to change, is that the non ruck could well be used on a cyclic basis during a game, causing confusion to players and the officials. Particularly if both sides start the same ruse to disrupt play. Also if the tactic becomes wide spread, it is a major change to Rugby Union as we presently know it, which some may welcome, others wondering why a change in playing style is desirable.

I totally agree that if England had applied such a tactic, many of Englands friends would have condemned the team and staff as being unsporting and probably much worse.

Did nobody else notice during the non ruck, in some instances Italian players were tackling some England players without the ball?

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

There is one very simple reason why this won't have a shelf life...the crowds won't accept it, they pay to be entertained and so do the T.V companies.

[Don Fry]

Erf, if three 20 stone sprinters in an arms linked hammerhead, battered into you, , and 4 of your mates have gone walkabout up the pitch, when you regain the power of speech, you may have a word to say to your absent mates. Most of the point of rugby is thinking faster than your victim.

And the referee was applying the rules of the game do you expect him to tell a prop how to counteract being pulled down and blamed for going down.

[Erfolg]

Donald

I do not blame the referee, other than ducking initially the implied question how are you interpreting what the I Italians are doing. Advice was not sought from my perspective, a question was being asked. A precise question from the England player did eventually extract a reply of how he saw things. Which then elicited another question from England how he interpreted the 1m or 2 m rule, in this instance. Particularly when there has been some discussion on how far from the ball a retreating player needs to be to avoid being off-side.

I do not blame the referee, I guess his concern was to ensure that he was seen to be neutral. Although the off ball tackling on occasion, appeared to be more about stopping a move, than mistiming, or momentarily after the ball had gone. Then again, some would have baulked at the delays and disruption of the game a penalty would have created. What I did not notice, if this ploy was only used when England were in their own half.

I did enjoy the game, particularly when the gamers paid a price for their lack of sportsmanship. Although my wife has suggested I am partisan with regard England. Although she does concede that cheating has me livid, or non equal use of the rules. I could barely be contained when watching Arsenal, playing Brentford, when a Arsenal player was fouled in such a manner that a Premiership player would have had a Red Card, nothing was awarded. This from a Northern powerhouse resident.

[Don Fry]

Anyway, poring over history is interesting, but of a value only as a predictor of the future. Less than a fortnight to go. Roll on. I will get into training, being nice to SWMBO, mon cherie ect, so on the day she will wait on me hand and foot, supplying beer and snacks, and meals as appropriate.

[Erfolg]

Perhaps something that has not been widely reported, although at least one newspaper states that prior to the match, both the Italian and English team representatives met the referee (and assistants) separately to clarify how the match would be conducted and what was expected from the team members.

It is reported that Italian team, sort clarification of the rucking process with the referee. I assume he will have either known the rules, chapter and verse. No doubt rechecking that he and his assistants were also completely clear and fully understood what is written.

Assuming that what has been written is pretty much verbatim as to the events, prior to the match, what occurred during the match will have come as no surprise to the refereeing team.

On the other hand, it is apparent that the England team were surprised. Not only that a degree of uncertainty as to the exact wording of this aspect of the rule book.

[Don Fry]

Erf, it is normal practice for representatives each teams coaching staff to speak to the referee before a match. He will let them know what is the latest thinking on rule interpretation, i.e. his interpretation.

They will each, in confidence, inform the ref of any cute tricks planned, if they are smart. He can then make sure he knows the rules, and will advise on his view of the cute tricks legality/his interpretation.

[Nigel Day]

Yes, although it's normally more important when Northern Hemisphere sides play Southern Hemisphere sides or there's a SH ref involved in a NH match and vice versa.

Historically they've tended to treat a few areas of the game slightly differently so it pays to make sure that you know how a particular ref will act in key areas of play.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Been reading a comments thread on a newspaper column, jeez there's some angry crazy folk on the tinternet

[Don Fry]

Don't go there John, will only disturb your karma. As I said above, invest in roses, cook her a meal, start hinting, promise a trip to Paris, fingers crossed behind back mind. Maintain karma.

[Erfolg]

I totally agree Donald, with the meetings, although it is unlikely that the reporter knows precisely what was said.

I think the referee was in an awkward place, in that to avoid any suggestion that he was helping the English team, he felt obliged to respond in a manner that ensured that he was not providing guidance, by framing his answer that did not answer the implied question, until the question was framed specifically to being a request to state the rule in context as interpreted by himself and his assistants.

Being a referee is an hard task anyway, abuse of the spirit of the rules makes the job much harder. It can be said that there are generally far fewer poor decisions in Rugby, made possible by the use of appropriate technology ,unlike football. I have seen some estimates that suggest that football referees are making so many bad calls, that there decisions have become as important to the outcome of a game as the contributions made by the two teams.

The good thing was that when finally the England team understood what the Italians were doing and as a group it was understood what the team response was going to be, the Italians were then soundly beaten.

I am convinced that the rule has to change, to ensure that variations of the tactic are not used as a means to disrupt a game. It will be mayhem if both sides start using the tactic in a had-hoc way. The game will no longer be Rugby as we know it today, by a wide margin.

[Don Fry]

Michael, half way wait time.

May I wish you a lifetime of free haggis and neeps, with copious ancient malts. Might they be served by beautiful and attentive young ladies/gentlemen/hairdressers (delete as appropriate).

Next week, I will feel, therefore, have no need to be nice. But I hope by then you won't care.

Bye the bye, I read rumours, some serious line breakers return.

Sleep and dream well.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Aye they're touting Billy will be back, dunno if it's true but fingers crossed

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Well he played 72 minutes for his club, so we should see him at weekend, building up nicely in the press n Eddie's been restrained so far, might not last though

John