Dave Bran Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 If you were expecting to see the BBMF at a flying show (like Biggin Hill this weekend) **LINK** Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Whybrow Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 One of the news sites indicates this affects all Merlin engine aircraft! I haven't been able to find anywhere that details what the problem is so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Bran Posted August 17, 2017 Author Share Posted August 17, 2017 Biggin Hill show organisers seem to think only BBMF affected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrman Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 Apparently traces of metal particles were found on a magnetic drainplug in one engine. No further details yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gangster Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 Sun newspaper seems to think that only ww2 lancs spits and hurricanes fitted with merlin jet engines are affected Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrman Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 "fitted with merlin jet engines" Of course, the little known Merlin JET. Most newspapers should stop reporting anything to do with aircraft as they haven't got a clue! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon H Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 There was a piece on radio 2 earlier that made me want to kick the radio into the yard. The drivel being spoken by people who know nothing about the subject was driving me up the wall. If Jrman is correct then that is not uncommon as a failure type but the timing could have been unusual (recently overhauled engine etc). Either way, a temporary grounding while you check out your other engines is a perfectly logical step so i dont know why the media have jumped on it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff S Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 Posted by gangster on 17/08/2017 14:22:10: Sun newspaper seems to think that only ww2 lancs spits and hurricanes fitted with merlin jet engines are affected Perhaps they're getting confused with Merlin Helicopters which have gas turbine engines Geoff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Bran Posted August 17, 2017 Author Share Posted August 17, 2017 All affected? Nobody's told the Spitfire circulating BH today then................ You don't know why the media is "on it"? Really? Parliament is quiet, Brexit's almost completely on holiday. The August AAIB report has NO drone report in it (does have a Helicopter/Kite impact report from Feb!) . There's no royals or stars to chase as their all away. Not even little green men or buses on the moon to report. They have to invent or distort or blow up SOMETHING to sell their trash. It is however the height of the air show season, so the timing is pretty poor, unless of course a funding round approaches......................... Edited By Dave Bran on 17/08/2017 16:59:59 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gangster Posted August 18, 2017 Share Posted August 18, 2017 Geoff. Of course that's it they are getting confused with the ww2 merlin helecopter which for security reason went under the three names they quoted. I suppose it's better than the daily mail who can contradict themselves in the same paragraph Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Bran Posted August 21, 2017 Author Share Posted August 21, 2017 Which of course is why our bombing was more accurate, as we could hover. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon H Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 The update from the MOD: "Our investigation has confirmed an issue with a pinion gear in a Merlin engine. With the precise cause of the problem known, each pinion gear is now being inspected to confirm it meets our exacting standards, with the BBMF and industry putting all of our efforts into getting these beautiful aircraft safely back in the air as soon as possible." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken anderson. Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 clever ,how they home in on a fault.i was reading an article the other day re...WW2 spits,and the average service lifespan was 4.1/2 mission's!..that's the average.The Lancaster was a bit more lucky 5.1/2missions ...all brave young lads.. ken Anderson...ne...1....spit/lanc dept. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Morris 2 Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 Alex Henshaw in his book 'Sigh for a Merlin' relates an episode of unexplained Merlin failures. I believe it was a failure of skew gearing to the camshafts. The failures only affected engines being produced by Packard in the US, and Alex in company with RR reps' travelled to the US to investigate. The production problem was identified and no further failures occurred. But as Ken A pointed out the wartime engines never clocked up the amount of hours that current Merlins may experience. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onetenor Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 Also I believe if the pilot pushed the throttle through the boost gate the engine had to be stripped and examined.. I don't know what damage may have ensued but would be interesting to know. Any ex RAF fitters know the answer ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon H Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 From what i have read over the years the limitations on the merlin according to the data sheet sort of went out the window when it came to combat. I know for sure that if i had a 109 after me i would not be worried in the slightest that i was running full power beyond the recommended time limit. I think there were reports of pilots using max power for over half an hour when it theoretically had a 5 minute limit. I doubt it did the life of the engine any good but when you had plenty available and service/supply chains you just swapped them out i am sure and sent them for rebuild just as they did with damaged airframes. During wartime if an engine blew up and the pilot ditched in a field it was not likely to be a huge issue. Now, with rarity of merlins and the aircraft they power only really flown low level at airshows it is a far greater concern. As for the age of the engines that will become more of an issue. I do wonder how long it will be before someone just admits defeat and builds brand new engines from scratch. No doubt with modern materials and methods the engines would be stronger and more reliable, even if they would loose some of their historical authenticity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Member Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 [This posting has been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Harris - Moderator Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 Posted by ken anderson. on 31/08/2017 11:08:40: clever ,how they home in on a fault. Short of an actual failure in service or during physical inspection, there's a possibility that this could have been picked up by routine oil analysis - especially if the pinion material differs from other parts. Has anyone heard what lead them to suspect this wasn't an isolated case - Merlins all over the world have clocked up massive numbers of hours over decades of use without multiple failures due to these pinions as far as I'm aware... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon H Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 I think it was detected via the oil Martin and my understanding is that the other engines were ok and they are just operating a better safe than sorry policy and doing them all, which is perfectly reasonable Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merco 61 Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 About three weeks ago,I was loitering at home in Lincoln,awaiting the return of the Lancaster from Duxford after its repairs.It eventually approached from the South,but most unusually it was at great altitude.BBMF aircraft normally pass over us at about 500 feet,often much lower.Which I like very much.On this occasion I estimate it at about 6000.It then circled three or four times with a Gryphon Spit on its wing tip.What was different was the engine sound.The engines or engine was really howling and I was actually quite alarmed.I have never heard a Merlin revved so hard except in "The Dam Busters"when they are trying to clear the high ground.It most certainly sounded as if something was badly amiss ,or I was witnessing the severest of engine tests.I expected her to then head up towards Coningsby,but she turned and headed back South. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Fry Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 Posted by onetenor on 31/08/2017 12:20:14: Also I believe if the pilot pushed the throttle through the boost gate the engine had to be stripped and examined.. I don't know what damage may have ensued but would be interesting to know. Any ex RAF fitters know the answer ? Not a fitter, but I believe the motor had an emergency boost system which injected water into the engine. The resulting steam at horrendous pressures would have challenged the metallurgy of that era. But produced horse power. Also reference was made to the life of these machines. When I was a very young man, I occasionally had a drink with a pilot in WW2. He flew all through the war, but not in the very short life expectancy roles, his words, not mine. He spent a fair time operating Mosquito photo reconnaissance versions. He related to me that he had one with an engine problem. He closed the good engine, and force landed. His reasoning, the weather was not great, it is dangerous on one engine, the film, and his safety, is worth more. And when asked by his boss, the above reasoning was considered valid. Expensive times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Whybrow Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 A colleague who's in the know mentioned it was picked up during an examination of the magnetic plug in the oil system. It's a shame thay didn't find it earlier, the Lanc was supposed to do a display at our loacl show at Little Gransden last Sunday! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Leighfield Posted September 1, 2017 Share Posted September 1, 2017 The BBMF say the problem is with suspect pinion gears, perhaps it is a batch manufactured specially and a quality problem has been identified? In "Sigh for a Merlin" Alex Henshaw describes that there was a problem that arose with sudden engine stoppages ( Spitfire Vs, 1941)? caused by faulty gear drives to the magnetos. They would shear and the engine stopped dead. This was the cause of a hairy belly landing in Willenhall on a flight from Cosford to Castle Bromwich. Potentially something similar? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Harris - Moderator Posted September 1, 2017 Share Posted September 1, 2017 Posted by Merco 61 on 31/08/2017 16:37:29: About three weeks ago,I was loitering at home in Lincoln,awaiting the return of the Lancaster from Duxford after its repairs.It eventually approached from the South,but most unusually it was at great altitude.BBMF aircraft normally pass over us at about 500 feet,often much lower.Which I like very much.On this occasion I estimate it at about 6000.It then circled three or four times with a Gryphon Spit on its wing tip.What was different was the engine sound.The engines or engine was really howling and I was actually quite alarmed.I have never heard a Merlin revved so hard except in "The Dam Busters"when they are trying to clear the high ground.It most certainly sounded as if something was badly amiss ,or I was witnessing the severest of engine tests.I expected her to then head up towards Coningsby,but she turned and headed back South. This might tie in with the latest info on PPrune from "someone in the know" who states that the pinion gear mentioned in the official statement is in the propeller reduction gearing? There again, you'd expect them to simply shut down a faulty engine rather than allow it to over-rev... Edited By Martin Harris on 01/09/2017 13:55:51 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon H Posted September 1, 2017 Share Posted September 1, 2017 BBMF's own statement was that the fault was in a Hurricane. In the case of the Lanc they normally run at massively reduced RPM so if he wound it up to the full 3000 then it would sound significantly different to normal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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