Advice for an I.C. virgin!

[Tim Kearsley]

HI all,

Having been flying now for over 18 months, I've just taken the plunge into the world of I.C. engines, having built and flown exclusively electric-powered models until now.  I'm now building a Hangar 9 Mustang and have bought a Saito 1.00 4-stroke to pull it around the sky.

The thing is, I'm a COMPLETE newcomer to this "other" side of aeromodelling!  I'm finding of course that there are things I need, which I haven't got!  So, thus far I have equipped myself with fuel, a spare glow plug, a plug wrench and a glow starter.  I plan on building myself a flight box.  What else do I need?  Is it worth buying an electric starter or is that for wimps?!  I presume also I am going to need a fuel container and pump for refilling the model?  I'm thinking a hand-pump is good enough?  I'd be very grateful to all you "old hands" with I.C. to point me at anything else I am going to need!

Cheers,

Tim.

[David Ashby - Moderator]

Not sure I'm an old hand Tim but do get an electric starter for the Saito. I've got a Saito 100 and simply stated you'll need an electric starter to make it work!  The starter will turn to engine over sufficient to suck in fuel and although my motor will then often start with a simple flick, sometimes the starter is required to provide some encouragement.

You'll need a fuel transfer system - I use a plastic 1/2 gallon container and a six-shooter hand-crank fuel pump that never goes wrong. I've never had a power panel as it (and the 12v battery) adds to the weight I need to carry from car to the patch.   

[Andy Harris]

Tim

I'll watch this thread with interest, my approach has been to go for bigger and bigger LiPos to achieve the same power levels.  Yet every flying session is accompanied by someone trying to persuade me to get an IC engine.

I watch with interest on the flight line the time taken to start IC engines.

This varies from all evening with no success to instant starting.  My observations are that some people just have 'the force'. There are at least two club members that never spend more than 15 seconds starting an engine, and they never fiddle with it once its running.

However a greater number seem to put in far more effort to get them to start and when they have started there is an inverse proportional risk of a dead stick versus starting effort.

Actually I posess an IC engine, just not had the faith to use it. ... regards   Andy 

[Tim Kearsley]

Thanks for the advice David - this is exactly the sort of thing that is invaluable!  I'm calling in to the local hobby shop again this evening (I think I'm keeping them afloat single-handed!) so will look at electric starters.  Flipping heck, this is getting expensive!  Just one thing that puzzles me David - if you don't have a power panel, how do you get power to the starter in the field - and apologies if that's a dozy question!

Tim.

[Tim Kearsley]

Hi Andy,

Yes, I understand exactly your comments and I have bought my first I.C. engine only after a lot of thought and wringing of hands!  Initially, I was going to "electrify" the Mustang.  Then I looked at the cost of 6-cell LiPos of decent capacity, or of doubling up the cost of 3-cell LiPos of similar capacity (as you would have to have 2 packs in series) and it scared me!  Having said that, the Saito engine cost 200 quid alone, plus all the other bits I'm buying.  I think really my choice was swayed by the sheer curiosity of wanting to try out the I.C. side of the hobby.  I think at heart I'm an electric fan (no smart pun intended!) but I'm sure this whole experience will be interesting....

Tim.

[David Ashby - Moderator]

My electric starter is a clunking great thing and difficult to hold but the new generation of slim starters are much easier to hold.

Good question Tim, I should have explained. I use a 12v battery that's from a golf trolley and therefore I can carry it separately when I'm using the Saito and other larger 4-strokes (which are all but impossible to start without) but I hand flick all my smaller 40-60 size engines and so don't need to carry the electric starter. I have a little 2v battery for the glow - just me really.

 

[Peter Miller]

Tim.

 Very few engines give any trouble starting. Once set, don't fiddle. The weather may mean they need a click either way but not often.

I use a J.Perkins hand pump. I do not use a power panel. You can use a Ni-starter, just a glow clip with built in battery.

I use a Schumacker Glowstick. This is a little black box which is connected to a 6 cell nicad and a glow clip. Mainly used by the car boys. I charge mine about twice a year. More expensive that the Ni starter.

Take a tip from me. Use Taylor Standard long reach plugs (NOT R.C) I use them in everything, two srokes, four strokes. They last longer, give instant starts and only cost just over £2. I have been using them for about 30 years without problems. My engiones start on one quickc burst of the starter once fuel has reached the carb.

 I use a 12 volt Gell cell which isn't too heavy. I also mount my starter in the flight box and push to model onto it, I use a foot switch to operate it. This is much safer as you are always behind the model and the only lead that passes the prop is the foot switch lead which lies along the ground.

My preferred fuel is Model technics Duraglow 10% nitro. I use that in evetryhting. My engines from .15s to 91FS  all  love it.

Never run your ening at its peak rpm. Bring it up to peak and then richen the needle until you just hear a rev drop. That way it is not going to have a lean run. A lean run will ruin an engine because it gets too hot.

I could go on but

[Tim Kearsley]

Peter, thank you very much for your advice.  I've read a couple of your books from cover to cover!  Yes, it's all a bit new to me at the moment, but I'm looking forward to it.  I'm doing what I always do when I start a new venture and that's read eveything I can lay my hands on.  I've bought a few items and will build on that as I go.  I shall build myself a flight box of sorts from timber.  I'm fortunate in that I have several 12V, 24Ah batteries which I obtained (legally I hasten to add!) at no cost.  They're a few years old but seem to have plenty of life left in 'em.  I shall purchase a starter and I like the idea of mounting it on the flight box from a safety point of view.  Also, I'm lucky in that I have a mentor who lives not far away and who has almost 40 years of experience to offer if I do get stuck.

Tim.

[Peter Miller]

Now you are a man after my own heart. I always read up on anything new that I start. So many people just will not buy a book.

Having an experienced friend nearby is very helpful.

I will add a couple of pictures of my starter set up on my Feugray gallery. Should be there later this morning all being well.

[Tim Kearsley]

Thank you very much Peter, much appreciated.

Tim.

[Myron Beaumont]

Peter  

  Trouble with 'lektrickery in my short conversion to build a few is that once you've read all the articles on all the possible downtalls (pit) falls etc .so that you think you have sufficient knowledge --your stuff is out of date !!  I'll never stop using proper engines as long as fuel is available .

  PS Where 's 'er indoors' model boat  .Wet wet wet Again ! Watch out you lekticians  Don't mix do they watts & water

[Tim Kearsley]

Myron,

I'm not sure it's quite as bad as you say!  The trouble with electric power at the moment, for larger models anyway, is that the LiPo batteries start to get a bit pricey.  For my 65-inch Mustang, I reckoned I really needed 6-cell 4500 mAh packs to give me a reasonable current draw and enough power.  These can be quite expensive and of course you really need several to give you a decent flying session.  In my own case though, I just fancied a foray into the world of noise, mess and smells!!  Joking aside, I think both I.C. and electric have their place.  For smaller models, I think electric is just great - I can take my little foam Trojan out if I've got a spare half-hour and get two or three ten-minute flights.  All I have to take is the model, a spare battery or two and the Tx!  Once I've finished, I just put the model back in the car - no mess to clear up.  I'm still looking forward to firing up the Saito 100 though!!

Cheers,

Tim.

[Bruce Richards]

For larger models I have been using multiple 3S 2500mah packs which I can get for about £12 each. So for your 6S 4500 I would use 4 of my 3s in a 2s2p configuration to get a 6cell 5000mah for under £50. It seems to work well but has several draw backs:

Complex wiring.

Limited options to multiples of 3S.

Time consuning charging unless you have more than one charger working at the same time.

However it is a cheap and workable solution and gives you lots of options for battery placement.

[Tim Kearsley]

Well that's a much cheaper option than I was looking at Bruce!  I must admit that I've been paying about £60 for 3s 3300 mAh packs (Flightpower EVO25).  You're right in that having four separate packs does give you a lot of flexibility in shifting weight around to get the C of G right.  I'm sure that in due course I shall electrify a larger model.  In the meantime, I'm looking forward to scraping goo off the Mustang after each flying session!

Tim.

[Myron Beaumont]

Exactly some of the points I made  .I didnt  initially really realise that to have a decent days flying I would need about minimum of three batteries for each model & cos of the short flying times I would be faffing about with this and that and the other .Not relaxing (turnround time-five minutes approx -ic ) & definately not cheap  I have a 3s & a 4s lipo  so am restricted until I buy more & more of them Plus ESCs plus another charger plus  --It goes on & on   etc etc  The only easy lektrikkery for me is changing  a £5 Rx battery every hour or so -Yes I still use Nicads  Call me old fashioned but I have got used to them after about 30 years .

Steps off flight box - gets his coat  etc

[Tim Kearsley]

I love your posts Myron - they always make me smile!  Yes, there are definitely drawbacks to electric flight as you rightly point out.  There are also plus points of course.  The issue of cost of LiPos is to some extent offset by low running cost.  To charge a LiPo costs literally a few pence and if you treat them kindly (i.e. discharge them at a fraction of their "C" rating) they last for many, many charge/discharge cycles.  I don't know what it costs to run, say, a 0.46 2-stroke, but I presume it's of the order of 50p a flight say - purely a guess.  So the batteries slowly pay for themselves.  Also, brushless motors generally are cheaper than glow engines.  For my Mustang, I bought a Saito 100 which cost me 200 quid - I could provide the same power with a brushless motor costing less than half that.

In the long run, I guess it's good that there's a choice.   I must say, looking at the Saito, an I.C. engine is much more interesting to look at than a brushless motor - I could put it on the mantlepiece if I wasn't putting it in a model!

Tim.

[Myron Beaumont]

Glad I can make at least one person smile Tim 

 The comment about looking at an engine makes me think of the beautiful variety of motor cars up to 40'ish years ago  All different ! --- Now to me they're all "blobs"( bit like 'lectric motors eh ?) & equipped with things you cant fix   !

[Peter Miller]

I just love engines, always have, always will.

Did you see on TV that the new electric cars and hybrids are so quiet that they have started to give them engine noise from loud speakers so the blind can hear them coming. Really true.

Of course we have had large electric models with loud speakers with full size engine noise. Now what I want to see is an electric model with smoke on!!!

[Tim Kearsley]

Just looked at the pictures of your starter set up Peter - looks a safe, sensible way of doing it.  Thank you for posting them.

Tim.

[Peter Miller]

My pleasure

[Allan Jordan]

Hi Tim, If you had bought a nice PAW diesel engine you would'nt have had to buy starters, batteries etc.

  Having posted this little bit of mischief I'm off to hide in the safety of my w/shop.

[Peter Miller]

Yes, but at £6 for 500 Ml (a pint) it is a bit more expensive.

Also, I used to like the smell of diesel fuel but it does pervade everything for ages. Now I find it a bit too stong.

Oh, and I don't think they do one equivelant to the 100 FS

[Mark Lubbock]

Re Peter's earlier post-If you watch electric models long enough, you will almost certainly see one with 'smoke on'!!!

Seriously, I love IC engines & although I agree electric is more convenient etc. etc. albeit only in smaller sizes IMHO, I just can't get the same sense of satisfaction from just switching on & flying. It has also to be said that I was brought up on building & flying my own models & appreciate the sense of achievement gained because of, not in spite of the difficulty involved.

I still can't believe someone is starting out in IC with a 100 four stroke though!! I thought I was brave at 14 with my HUGE!!! DC Sabre & was in awe of older lads with ED Racers & PAW 2.49's etc. Later, I really graduated with a Fox .19 & KK Spectre. This was at the time when the real experts were using Merco .49's & .60's in their 'Full House' R/C models-probably 3 months wages for the average bloke then!!

Incidentally, I buy my diesel from Southern Modelcraft at around £8 for 1/2 gallon & diesels use less fuel than glows.

Best of luck with your IC foray Tim-you are doing the right thing asking for advice here.

[Tim Kearsley]

Hi Mark,

Well, yes, I know it sounds a bit ambitious, starting out with a 100 four-stroke!  The thing is, this all really started because I wanted to build a bit larger model than I have done so far and the Hangar 9 Mustang took my fancy.  I then planned initially to "electrify" it, but I've also harboured a desire to try out the whole I.C. scene and in the end it seemed an idea to put the two plans together.  As I said in an earlier post, I'm lucky in that I have Colin Chapman (Midlands Flight Training) close by - a guy with some 35+ years of experience, all in I.C.  He has already told me that he will do as much of the setting up etc. as I want him to.

I'll let you know how it all goes anyway, and how many fingers I lose.....

Tim.

[Peter Miller]

One point that very few people make.

When starting an engine the worst that one will get is a bruised finger. All the bad accidents happen when the engine is running fast.

One exception. When people do not sandpaper the flash off the propellor moulding. A Master Airscrew can be used to carve balsawood. I remeber the last person who caught me out that way. His starter battery failed and he couldn't hand start . I flicked the engine over and sliced my finger good and proper...He will never forget again!

Mark. Yes, My Racer was huge! Then my first Fox .35 was really intimidating. That was back in the early to mid 50s.