Alan Jarvis Posted July 11, 2019 Share Posted July 11, 2019 Keith it is already happening Airbus electric aircraft www.airbus.com/newsroom/news/en/2018/07/the-future-is-electric.html Hybrid cruise ship www.overnmenteuropa.eu/hybrid-cruise-ship-roald-amundsen/93860/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Member Posted July 11, 2019 Share Posted July 11, 2019 [This posting has been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel R Posted July 11, 2019 Share Posted July 11, 2019 "They have also moved into the domestic energy market" They took over First Utility. Which means, ultimately, they bought a billing and administration front end business, rather than actually doing any of the electricity generation or distribution or infrastructure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Member Posted July 11, 2019 Share Posted July 11, 2019 [This posting has been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel R Posted July 11, 2019 Share Posted July 11, 2019 You made a good choice; I have one of their bills. It's based on incorrect information, ignoring our correct readings supplied to First Utility at the time we closed our account and moved to another supplier, and is way beyond the back billing cutoff (added to which it fails several of the other clauses in the regulations). It's been followed almost immediately with unpleasant threats of debt collection, despite me already having the issue escalated from first contact with customer resolutions to the team that deals with bad billing. I'm singularly unimpressed with their outfit and will be going to the regulator shortly if they don't sort it out toot suite. By contrast the network operator responsible for our supply has been very prompt to fix any issues (countryside, overhead wires, trees - the usual). Is it moving into the market? In some respects, maybe. But their original oil and gas business involves exploration, extraction, refinement, distribution and sales to public. To have a comparable electric business they need power stations, wind farms, hydro dams, etc. I'm sure they will want to move that way eventually. Edited By Nigel R on 11/07/2019 15:06:01 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Member Posted July 11, 2019 Share Posted July 11, 2019 [This posting has been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Miles 2 Posted July 11, 2019 Share Posted July 11, 2019 Alan, Percy, I am a PPL and am fully aware of various experiments within the aircraft industry and that is what they currently are, experiments. To quote just one example of a two-seat training aircraft already available, it has a total endurance of 1.5 hours which includes a 30 minute reserve. Pretty useless, therefore, for anything other than circuit training or flights close to its home base. Endurance, plus a safe reserve, is a more essential requirement within aviation, for obvious reasons! Like other contributors to this thread, I come back to the issue of energy production rather than end use. There appears to be a major contradiction here. We are constantly being told that our energy consumption needs to be significantly reduced generally and not just for environmental reasons. I fail to see how that can ever be achieved by, in this case, merely swapping one limited resource by placing increasing pressure on another limited resource and solving, or attempting to solve, one problem by creating another. As has been said, albeit ironically and in defence of electric vehicles, perhaps the ultimate solution is for us to reduce our expectations. Unfortunately, the vast majority of the human race has, quite understandably, become accustomed to advances that have, thus far, made our lives more comfortable not less so and self interest and relatively short term thinking merely adds to the problem of trying to alter our existing mindset. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel R Posted July 11, 2019 Share Posted July 11, 2019 "I began receiving both bills for my own home, plus the house over the road!" Experienced similar problems. Turns our house and another nearby house had been assigned the same ID. So any work on a meter on either house would result in something being messed up in the other's electric account. Equally, either house changing provider, resulted in both being moved to new provider. That was fun to sort out, and you'll be surprised at this, the electric provider took quite a number of goes to figure out what was going on, let alone get things right, and it was all done with us calling them, rather than the other way around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel R Posted July 11, 2019 Share Posted July 11, 2019 Keith, the switch to electric with private cars is not entirely about reducing demand on the supply, in part it serves to remove a lot of pollution from inner cities. The long term dream is of course that the electricity will come from renewable sources and thus not depend on digging up squashed dinosaurs from under unstable nation's soil. Somewhere along the line, I agree, we will probably need to accept that cars will need to be more economical, likely smaller and slower. The cynic in me says we'll end up depending on solar panels that can only be constructed using some rare earth mineral found only in a different set of unstable nations... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Jarvis Posted July 11, 2019 Share Posted July 11, 2019 I am a PPL and am fully aware of various experiments within the aircraft industry and that is what they currently are, experiments. Yes the Wright Bros plane was an experiment and look where that has taken us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Fry Posted July 11, 2019 Share Posted July 11, 2019 Nigel, they are squashed amphibians. Dinosaurs are reptiles, and came a bit later. And Alan, to misuse the small print on financial instruments, past performance is not a guarantee of future performance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Member Posted July 11, 2019 Share Posted July 11, 2019 [This posting has been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Richardson Posted July 11, 2019 Share Posted July 11, 2019 As a footnote to a previous post about electric aircraft, one carrier that operates float planes here on the west coast is already converting at least one aircraft - Beaver I believe - to electric, whether this will be the beginning of whole fleet conversion I do not know and it's routes are relatively short so interim charging should not be a problem, progress is being watched with great interest here, the outcome - if it succeeds - will certainly be historic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Fry Posted July 11, 2019 Share Posted July 11, 2019 That's about right Tony. The first successful electric aircraft will be a motor glider. The second will be a low powered Cub, Beaver, Cessna sort of thing. For the same reasons our toys followed that route. Invent the battery, a use will follow. Caution, the operative word is invent. i was reading the other day, a proposed battery. Either the cathode, or anode, used nano wires ( note plural) , seeded with viruses ( yes, virus) to produce a greater surface area. Before you laugh, this was serious. That's how difficult getting a good (better) battery is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Fry Posted July 11, 2019 Share Posted July 11, 2019 First Crude Electric Vehicle Is Developed Around 1832, Robert Anderson develops the first crude electric vehicle, but it isn't until the 1870s or later that electric cars become practical. Pictured here is an electric vehicle built by an English inventor in 1884. https://www.energy.gov › timeline Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solly Posted July 11, 2019 Share Posted July 11, 2019 Percy, which electric car are you driving at the moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Member Posted July 11, 2019 Share Posted July 11, 2019 [This posting has been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich too Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 Posted by Nigel R on 08/07/2019 09:16:47: "It's the range thing that always bothers me about electric cars." A solvable problem. As we've said many times before on this thread I think, the answer there is a hybrid. If you have charging facilities, 95% of your driving, the daily commute, run to the shops, etc, can be within range of the electric bit. For the other 5%, a petrol generator is on board. Alternatively, if you have nowhere to (regularly) charge, everything is by petrol. Or, get an electric bike/scooter for one man commuter journeys and keep the dinosaur for the occasional long distance. Many ways to skin the cat. I agree totally, and current EV sales are those that it is practical for. Hybrid is much more practical. Have you seen the cost of electric motorcycles? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich too Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 Posted by Don Fry on 08/07/2019 12:43:11: Long term planned future. Where does that phrase come from. What cars we drive is driven by taxation, and the ability of government to enforce taxation, restrictions on the use of cars, and again the ability of authority to enforce it. I see precious little planning, just polititions, giving mouthroom to sound bites. Pure electric is a coming technology, but there can be no planning around what has not been invented. And I don't believe this thread is restrictive to pure electric vehicles. Andy, does your car come into the plug in electric class? Exactly, who says ? I read an article recently, and it stated that manufacturers cannot agree on the best way forward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich too Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 Posted by Percy Verance on 10/07/2019 13:41:34: Well certainly the days of i.c engind passenger car ownership are numbered. It won't be legal to sell or market them after 2040....... The final line of your post hints at everyone using public transport? Well that's almost funny. Where I live, in a relatively small rural village, the bus service has all but disappeared. There are just 3 per day. Morning, mid-day and one later, about 5 or 6 o clock. That's it. Public transport is hunky dory when all you need is to get there, but if you want to bring 6 bags of cement or half a dozen 2.1 metre lengths of 3x2 home from the nearest builder's merchant (before you ask, they only deliver trade orders) then you'd be stuffed on a bus because they'd not let you on. I do find it strange you feel the charging infrastructure will never be sufficient. The majority - 80% - of present electric car owners charge at home. Why might you think this percentage may not stay the same when electric cars begin selling in much greater numbers than at present? Surely most EV owners will carry on home charging? Edited By Percy Verance on 10/07/2019 14:11:00 Your first sentence is not quite true. How on earth will 80% of ALL current car users be able to charge at home? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel R Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 80% of existing, current, right now, electric car owners. Not 80% of all private car owners. There's an obvious self selection in the first group, for whom charge-on-the-drive is practical. Yes, electric motorbikes are not cheap. But, electric mopeds, a.k.a. ebikes, can be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glyn44 Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 Going to Brum on a Sunday in August for a day at the cricket. Need to be in the ground at the round by, say, 10:30am. It’s an about a 50 min. Train journey, first train to leave home is 10:23!!! Also if we go to an evening gig in Birmingham last train home is 10:20. Music stops around 11pm. Public transport, it’s a joke. Got to get the Jag out again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken anderson. Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 just hope also that the infrastructure is up to it(underground cables)most which have been down below before most of us were borrn. I worked for 30 years keeping open the arteries of the nation(gas board) and a lot of the pipes in the ground were approaching 100 years old +.we once uncovered a one that was installed in 1912,same year as the titanic carry on. When I finished(2008) they were on mission nationwide to replace old metal pipes......est to take 30 years......just when we are supposedly going to stop fossil fuels(that makes sense)…...so like I say hope the cables are up to the task looming? ken anderson...ne...1....cable and gas dept. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Miles 2 Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 When we use historical references (e.g. invention of the motor car and the aeroplane) to support an argument regarding human innovation we need to consider the relevance of such references in relation to the conditions and needs of the time and the conditions and needs of today. There is a world of difference between, on the one hand, introducing something which did not previously exist and having the luxury of time to develop it over an extended time period and, on the other, having to find a new technology in a much shorter time period to directly replace what already exists and on which we now depend. How quickly a new vehicle technology can be developed and established to match the existing one and how quickly the sale of such alternatively powered vehicles can be increased and costs/prices reduced remains to be seen. I also wonder about any eventual second hand market for electric vehicles (i.e. cheap ones!) and whether there will be an equivalent level of support as for IC vehicles or whether they will be rendered obsolete (i.e. scrap!) much sooner, something that we are already seeing with other electronic devices! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Fry Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 My long term view. The current vision of electric cars is fatally flawed. Current thoughts are, take a car weighing 2000 kilos, capable of cruising at a hundred miles an hour, with a range of 500 miles, and change the power unit. And put a few wires in for the chargers. Job ✅ When you have worked out the batteries, ditto lorries, ships, 250 mph trains, no more mobile oil burners. Job ✅ With the usual caveats, that lot is probably possible. No investment for public transport. No thoughts that we might have to, to survive, use less energy. All I see is a re-run in the dash to diesel incident. I am a glass half full sort, despite a working life that dents such optimism. But I find this quite depressing, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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