Electric Cars.

[Don Fry]

It's not, perhaps, overpopulation is the problem, but them wanting to eat and use resources, as though they are important enough to deserve them. There is a line of learned research, that getting people out of subsistence existence causes a natural lessoning to reproduction rates. Keeping them pinned down in subsistence living, continues the cycle of large families.

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Kim Taylor]

Posted by Percy Verance on 21/07/2019 18:09:11:

The energy I get from solar will always be free.

Edited By Percy Verance on 21/07/2019 18:40:22

Are you sure??

The loss of income from fossil fuel taxes will have to be recouped from somewhere...........................................

Kim

[eflightray]

My criteria were,

does it look good to me ? (I don't care what other think, plus I need to sit low to the pedals)

can I live with the interior, dashboard, controls, infotainment ?

do I enjoy driving it ? (I love it, in sports mode it's real fun)

most importantly, can my models, including the big ones, fit in the rear with the rear seats down ?

is the price acceptable ? (actually it had a £1000 off if you had a test drive, total just under £22 Gs)

will I help saving the planet ? (don't really give a darn, if the whole of the UK changed it would still be infinitesimal affect on the world).

My answers were yes. So I bought a Hyundai Ioniq hybrid. I get 56 mpg with a fair amount of lead foot driving, I don't have to even think about range.

 

.

Edited By eflightray on 21/07/2019 20:15:01

[Keith Miles 2]

By pure coincidence, prior to seeing Percy’s most recent post, I came across an article about relative costs of EV ownership over three years.

Seems that not only are EVs significantly more expensive to buy than an IC equivalent but that they also have the highest depreciation rates, compared to IC alternatives and across all categories. Insurance, it seems, is also more expensive for EVs although insurers are expecting premiums to reduce over time. The article also points out the possible additional cost of battery replacement or leasing to factor in if not already included.

Prior to this, and ready to be persuaded, I also found reviews of the eNiro which were pretty impressive, I must admit. However, the reviews did not include any of the aforementioned factors merely concentrating on the merits of the vehicle itself.

So, the environmental advantages would appear questionable and EV ownership, currently, would also appear to work out, taking everything into account, probably more expensive overall rather than less so, as things stand.

I have never been an “early adopter” of anything preferring to take a “wait and see” approach and you will certainly never see me sleeping in a shop doorway waiting for the latest gadget to arrive.

I have never been a gambler either!

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Keith Miles 2]

Posted by eflightray on 21/07/2019 20:05:51:

My criteria were,

does it look good to me ? (I don't care what other think, plus I need to sit low to the pedals)

can I live with the interior, dashboard, controls, infotainment ?

do I enjoy driving it ? (I love it, in sports mode it's real fun)

most importantly, can my models, including the big ones, fit in the rear with the rear seats down ?

is the price acceptable ? (actually it had a £1000 off if you had a test drive, total just under £22 Gs)

will I help saving the planet ? (don't really give a darn, if the whole of the UK changed it would still be infinitesimal affect on the world).

My answers were yes. So I bought a Hyundai Ioniq hybrid. I get 56 mpg with a fair amount of lead foot driving, I don't have to even think about range.

.

Edited By eflightray on 21/07/2019 20:15:01

We need to be clear about what we are comparing here.

A hybrid is not an EV but, primarily, an IC powered car with a short range, non-essential supplementary battery.

So, of course range isn’t an issue for you because there are plenty of filling stations and you are not totally reliant on a smaller number of battery charging points!

Good choice!

[IDD15]

Posted by Keith Miles 2 on 21/07/2019 20:10:19:

By pure coincidence, prior to seeing Percy’s most recent post, I came across an article about relative costs of EV ownership over three years.

Seems that not only are EVs significantly more expensive to buy than an IC equivalent but that they also have the highest depreciation rates, compared to IC alternatives and across all categories. Insurance, it seems, is also more expensive for EVs although insurers are expecting premiums to reduce over time. The article also points out the possible additional cost of battery replacement or leasing to factor in if not already included.

Prior to this, and ready to be persuaded, I also found reviews of the eNiro which were pretty impressive, I must admit. However, the reviews did not include any of the aforementioned factors merely concentrating on the merits of the vehicle itself.

So, the environmental advantages would appear questionable and EV ownership, currently, would also appear to work out, taking everything into account, probably more expensive overall rather than less so, as things stand.

I have never been an “early adopter” of anything preferring to take a “wait and see” approach and you will certainly never see me sleeping in a shop doorway waiting for the latest gadget to arrive.

I have never been a gambler either!

So lets apply some facts to this shall we?

Nissan Leaf 30 Kw Model replaced my Hyundai i30 Petrol manual.

Insurance cost near as dammit the same.

Servicing £85 annual service

Depreciation, car is valued at £2K more than projected in vehicle lease according to the dealership. If it was diesel the residual value would not only be in the toilet, but flushed away. Again according to the dealership.

Fuel cost: Minimal as I charge at home off the solar panels or for free when I do the shop at Lidl.

Vehicle cost more expensive, yes but I got the smoothest, quietest fully automatic vehicle this side of a Rolls Royce or a Tesla. For the mainly tedious stop start city driving I do it is perfect.

Battery degradation, car is still showing 12 bars life after 15,000 miles. Taxi company has just sold on a 130,000 NV200 minibus (Leaf chassis and power train) and its battery is still showing 12 bars. Battery has an 8yr, 100,000 mile warranty so am not particularly worried. Nissan are now claiming the battery packs will have a life of 20 years.

I am looking forward to seeing your detailed analysis of the environmental mining and refining costs of all the copper wire you've installed over the years as a spark. Then there are also the expensive metals and god knows what in the chemical plant at the back of the engine to clean it up to look at to.

You are absolutely correct to say things should be fully scrutinised. We as a society can and should do better to prevent this:

Pollution link to childs death

EV's are not the only solution to this problem, but at least people are trying to find solutions. I see very little of this from your beloved petrochem industry.

idd

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Keith Miles 2]

Posted by Percy Verance on 21/07/2019 20:55:00:

It's probably best you don't buy one then Keith. If you're hinting at my justifying my choice, then it isn't going to happen. It was my decision to make, and I've made it.

People often spend large sums on holidays, clothes, nights out etc. They're happy with their choice. I'm sure I'll be happy with mine.

Kim

The loss of revenue from fossil fuels will probably be clawed back by introducing tolls on all major routes.

Edited By Percy Verance on 21/07/2019 21:07:56

Not questioning your decision, Percy. As you say, your money, your choice.

I won’t be buying one because (a) I can’t afford ANY new car, (b) at the age of 66, I’m likely to be pushing up daisies before EVs become compulsory (c) for my purposes, my current vehicle adequately fulfils my current needs unless it expires when (d) I might shop around for a cheap hybrid assuming that they haven’t been banned, I have some cash and I can still drive!

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Keith Miles 2]

Posted by IDD15 on 21/07/2019 21:10:37:

EV's are not the only solution to this problem, but at least people are trying to find solutions. I see very little of this from your beloved petrochem industry.

idd

Did I decry efforts to find solutions? Don’t think so.

MY “beloved” petrochemical industry? What a silly and baseless comment. I have never even been employed by them or bought their shares.

Some of the comments being made in this thread (a common affliction, it seems) are akin to the reaction one gets from certain religious groups when they feel that their faith is being attacked.

Are you seriously suggesting that I should be ashamed of all the copper wire I’ve installed? More silly nonsense.

ALL of us play, and have played our part in damaging the planet on a daily basis but I doubt that any of us did so, or do so, deliberately, in order to damage the planet.

We will also continue to do so, the only change would seem to be the extent to which we do so and the nature of the damage that we do.

There’s a word for the cause.

Consumerism.

I doubt that technology can find a solution to that nor to, as already mentioned, an ever increasing population.

It could even be argued, in fact, that technology has made both problems worse.

I don’t have the answers and I’m sceptical of those who claim that they do.

[Rich too]

Posted by Percy Verance on 21/07/2019 21:51:18:

Well I bought my first brand new car in my early 20's Keith. I was working for a fairly large company at the time, flogging my tripe out working 50 or 60 hours a week. I opened a second bank account specifically with the intention of saving enough to buy my first new car. The result - after just over a year or so - was a shiny new red VW Golf costing £4500. I paid cash and it felt good. I've been fortunate enough to be able to buy the odd new car as and when the fancy took me, but mostly I usually settle for 6 to 12 month old ones.

I'm slightly younger than you Keith, and I chose to take my personal pension a couple of years ago for health reasons. My partner and I have also recently sold another property we had, and I'll be using part of this sum to finance the eNiro . I don't normally make a habit of buying 30k cars, but I've never had a foreign holiday ( nor do I want one) so I just felt I'd do it this once.

Edited By Percy Verance on 21/07/2019 22:09:38

That’s fair enough Percy and good luck with it

[Rich too]

Posted by Keith Miles 2 on 21/07/2019 22:09:39:

Posted by IDD15 on 21/07/2019 21:10:37:

EV's are not the only solution to this problem, but at least people are trying to find solutions. I see very little of this from your beloved petrochem industry.

idd

Did I decry efforts to find solutions? Don’t think so.

MY “beloved” petrochemical industry? What a silly and baseless comment. I have never even been employed by them or bought their shares.

Some of the comments being made in this thread (a common affliction, it seems) are akin to the reaction one gets from certain religious groups when they feel that their faith is being attacked.

Are you seriously suggesting that I should be ashamed of all the copper wire I’ve installed? More silly nonsense.

ALL of us play, and have played our part in damaging the planet on a daily basis but I doubt that any of us did so, or do so, deliberately, in order to damage the planet.

We will also continue to do so, the only change would seem to be the extent to which we do so and the nature of the damage that we do.

There’s a word for the cause.

Consumerism.

I doubt that technology can find a solution to that nor to, as already mentioned, an ever increasing population.

It could even be argued, in fact, that technology has made both problems worse.

I don’t have the answers and I’m sceptical of those who claim that they do.

I totally agree with your last few points.

The government have to be seen to be doing something.

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Don Fry]

I wondered. here in France you see Segway machines trundling about. No idea if legal here or not, but I've never heard an explanation of why they (or scooters) are illegal to use on British roads.

[Shaun Walsh]

Posted by Don Fry on 22/07/2019 13:13:46:

I wondered. here in France you see Segway machines trundling about. No idea if legal here or not, but I've never heard an explanation of why they (or scooters) are illegal to use on British roads.

Because they are classed as motor vehicles and therefore have to comply with construction and use regulations, which they don't. Therefore you can't insure them which is a requirement for road use. They would also need type approval which they don't have.

Electric bikes and some mobility scooters are road legal as there are specific regulations relating to their design and as long as they comply they can be used on the road.

[Don Fry]

Thank you Shaun.

[Levanter]

Posted by Doc Marten on 22/07/2019 13:04:54:

It's interesting to hear that the government has announced a clamp down on e-scooters, seems contrary to the perks and encouragement given to e-bike users. Mixed messages from the government as to their commitment to green transport ?

Edited By Doc Marten on 22/07/2019 13:06:43

Same here in Spain but unconnected with any green transport. Some of them are now quite fast, completely silent and causing big problems on the pavements and promenades with accidents.

I don't have very good use of my legs but I can't help wondering if the some of the kids will loose the ability to walk properly because they go everywhere on their scooters even short distances. It's a bit like seeing very large toddlers in pushchairs.

Levanter

[Don Fry]

Thank you Levanter. I have been given a very nice bottle of Calvados. I have drunk a finger, on Percy's advice, to celebrate his new ( prospective) car, and between the two, I have mind worms of overgrown toddlers, in diapers, hurtling about.

And on that note I'll get cooking. It getting warm, 37° in the shade in my backyard.

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[IDD15]

Keith

“Did I decry efforts to find solutions? Don’t think so.”

Nor do you champion any. Your position on EV’s is very apparent from your previous posts.

“MY “beloved” petrochemical industry? What a silly and baseless comment. I have never even been employed by them or bought their shares.”

Agreed a cheap shot, please accept my apologies.

“Some of the comments being made in this thread (a common affliction, it seems) are akin to the reaction one gets from certain religious groups when they feel that their faith is being attacked.”

Well I guess one cheap shot deserves another, and I’ve been called a lot worse on this thread!

“Are you seriously suggesting that I should be ashamed of all the copper wire I’ve installed? More silly nonsense.”

No, it was more a rhetorical question referencing your previous position on lithium mining and full scrutiny thereof. You clearly expect that everything to do with EV’s should worked out and evidenced to the n’th degree, which is fair enough. Yet no sooner had Percy “come out” about his future purchase you seek to question it by quoting some source (not evidenced) about running costs and battery longevity. Followed by yet another absolute and “damning” statement of EV’s and ownership.

Why not just ask the question(s) on costs here? Might not be able to give you an answer, or indeed it might not be the answer you want. But I think most EV types would honestly try.

“ALL of us play, and have played our part in damaging the planet on a daily basis but I doubt that any of us did so, or do so, deliberately, in order to damage the planet.

We will also continue to do so, the only change would seem to be the extent to which we do so and the nature of the damage that we do.”

Agreed.

“There’s a word for the cause. Consumerism.”

Well it probably isn’t helping that’s for sure. But there are an awful lot of consumers and if you can effect even a small beneficial change in consumption and behaviour then big changes can happen.

It is perfectly right to be sceptical given the amount of “greenwash” and fake everything else we have thrown at us these days. However, as the saying goes “nothing ventured, nothing gained. The caveat being to venture when you're ready to….

My apologies again for the cheap shot.

Idd

[IDD15]

Posted by Percy Verance on 22/07/2019 20:04:04:

Well I shan't be buying an e scooter then... I was considering an electric bike though. There are several already in use around my village - my neighbour has one. Worthy of further investigation perhaps?

Me too, I'd like to use one for work. We hired a couple to do the Monsal Trail a couple of weeks back and they were really good.

Don, I think this is your cue!

[Keith Miles 2]

IDD15,

Firstly, It is bad manners to post a reply in bold print or capitals. It is the typed equivalent of shouting.

I do not currently "champion" EVs because in my opinion the current negatives, for me, outweigh the positives, if you'll pardon the obvious puns and I do not believe the environmental case, which is the central argument in favour, to be as strong as is widely claimed.

I thought that the purpose of the thread was to allow opposing views to be expressed and respected.

In that context, I have never questioned Percy's choice, or anyone else's unless, of course, you are concluding that anything other than a "championing" of EVs is automatically a criticism of anyone who buys, or wishes to buy, one.

I therefore refer you back to my previous comment about religious zeal.

Yes, I should have quoted my source material but couldn't figure out, at the time, how to do it on the I-pad. I am now on the PC, so here it is:

https://www.whatcar.com/news/petrol-diesel-hybrid-plug-in-hybrid-or-electric-%E2%80%93-which-is-the-cheapest-to-own/n18141

And, yes, there are other informed surveys that might give a different slant but that only proves that the case for EV is by no means proven yet.

And I will not repeat them but there are a number of oft quoted reasons why EVs are not yet a practical, realistic or confident choice for everybody at this point in time and certainly not the least of which is that row of numbers that you find inside vehicle windscreens at the dealers.

As for doing a little to achieve a lot, I tend to take comedian Sean Locke's environmental point of view when he said (in talking about washing out yoghurt pots for recycling) "It's like we're trying to clear up earthquake damage with a dustpan and brush".

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]