Mike T Posted June 1, 2018 Share Posted June 1, 2018 That's a bit extravagant. If they're any kind of pilot, they need to learn to land an airliner like this: https://youtu.be/ugEBGY1nQn4?list=PL4QSDQr4yLnE9WlNGhKoIHyRqZyF6bMeA&t=16 Edited By Mike T on 01/06/2018 16:13:31 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john stones 1 - Moderator Posted June 1, 2018 Share Posted June 1, 2018 I think they called em "Drones" so we could drone on about it for years, on what planet do you think the BMFA distancing itself from reality would have helped matters ? it's not fair I'm telling me man, only works when you're a toddler. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Member Posted June 1, 2018 Share Posted June 1, 2018 [This posting has been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Fox Posted June 1, 2018 Share Posted June 1, 2018 Our club has a flying site from which we operate SUA. I use that abbreviation intentionally as that is how they are regarded by our local ATC. Our flying site is within Class D airspace and as such flying is allowed in accordance with local ATC regulations, our local ANO and BMFA guidelines upon which our club rules are based. All of the above may cause many of you to throw your hands up in horror and cry out "Too much regulation - all I want to do is enjoy my hobby!" Well, the regulation actually works rather well for us, chiefly because everyone operating within the controlled airspace knows what the other guys are doing - which is what the EASA regs are seeking to achieve. 400' height limit? Yes thats what we normally adhere to, but we have applied to ATC in the past for an increase to 1000' which has been granted, because there are mechanisms in place to inform other air users. As far as drones are concerned, they are not allowed to fly within the ATZ - without permission from ATC ... and again this isnt usually a problem. As far as registration is concerned, we already register models over 7kg and have an agreement in place with ATC, that the club maintains this register. None of the above is a problem for us - in fact in my view it would be more of a problem if we weren't operating within controlled airspace. The moral of my story? Dont be afraid of regulation .... embrace it, as it might actually be working towards your advantage! Edited By Andy Fox on 01/06/2018 23:59:27 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattyB Posted June 2, 2018 Share Posted June 2, 2018 Posted by Martyn K on 01/06/2018 13:45:34: I think we are losing sight of the reasons for the new legislation. EASA regulations are Europe wide and are designed primarily to protect aircraft. The revised ANO by HMG is an extension of existing but primarily designed to clear airspace for commercial operations. This will be from 400ft to (I am guessing) about 1000ft. Whether we can differentiate what a 'drone' is or not is irrelevant, this will affect all SUAs For the majority of sports fliers, once the competency and bureaucracy requirements are implemented and absorbed it will have minimal impact. We will still be able to fly albeit limited to 400ft or thereabouts. I look at this as a speed limit. We ALL speed to a greater or lesser extent, you run the risk of getting caught. A greater risk the more you abuse the limit. What bothers me is whether we will be obliged to implement any tracking sensors or not and how that will be enforced. Unlike the EASA regulations, I am not sure whether Model registration is still a requirement as well as Pilot registration. It does not appear to be stated but if so, how will that work and what impact will it have? But my biggest concern is the impact it will have on competitive aeromodelling - especially thermal glider flying and F3A. It's all very well saying that NOTAMs will be issued for competitive events, however, this will prevent trimming and practicing - both essential for a serious competitive aeromodeller. There does appear to be a loophole in the new regs though. It refers to models controlled by Radio (actually remote) Control. It does not mention Free Flight which I assume will be exempt from the new regs.. Happy to be flamed on all that Martyn Good post, but a few areas I have to disagree with... I don't agree EASAs primary goal is safety. You don't have to read in between the lines to realise it is really all about integrating commercial drone operations into the airspace below 1k feet. Governments are eager for the tax £££s and jobs they believe will come with that, so curtailing the existing rights of a tiny number of modellers who have near zero electoral power is perfectly acceptable collateral damage in their eyes. The amendment clearly states pilot/operator registration is required, not model registration, at least for now. Electronic conspicuous is also not required yet, but that is clearly the direction of travel in the long term - EASAs Uspace concept essentially demands it for any operation outside of known permanent model flying sites. They will probably wait for an prominent incident or near miss between a SUA and full size though before pushing for this; HMG will want Daily Mail readers to be baying for additional regs first... I agree it's a little unclear due to lazy wordings, but I do not believe there is a loophole for free flighters in the amendment. They may not have a remote link to the aircraft but they are surely the "SUA Operator" who "...has the management of the aircraft". If not them, then who does? Edited By MattyB on 02/06/2018 02:23:30 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattyB Posted June 2, 2018 Share Posted June 2, 2018 Posted by Andy Fox on 01/06/2018 23:57:56: Our club has a flying site from which we operate SUA. I use that abbreviation intentionally as that is how they are regarded by our local ATC. Our flying site is within Class D airspace and as such flying is allowed in accordance with local ATC regulations, our local ANO and BMFA guidelines upon which our club rules are based. All of the above may cause many of you to throw your hands up in horror and cry out "Too much regulation - all I want to do is enjoy my hobby!" Well, the regulation actually works rather well for us, chiefly because everyone operating within the controlled airspace knows what the other guys are doing - which is what the EASA regs are seeking to achieve. 400' height limit? Yes thats what we normally adhere to, but we have applied to ATC in the past for an increase to 1000' which has been granted, because there are mechanisms in place to inform other air users. As far as drones are concerned, they are not allowed to fly within the ATZ - without permission from ATC ... and again this isnt usually a problem. As far as registration is concerned, we already register models over 7kg and have an agreement in place with ATC, that the club maintains this register. None of the above is a problem for us - in fact in my view it would be more of a problem if we weren't operating within controlled airspace. The moral of my story? Dont be afraid of regulation .... embrace it, as it might actually be working towards your advantage! Now put yourself in the shoes of those who have operated models safely from public sites outside of controlled airspace for decades such as thermal and slope pilots... Would you still take this view? It is those people that are potentially going to take the hit here; we will be flying on the edge of the law until this essentially unenforceable 400ft rule is tested in court. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattyB Posted June 2, 2018 Share Posted June 2, 2018 One final point - from the amendment... "Article 7 of this Order also introduces new procedural requirements applying to small unmanned aircraft with a mass of 250 grams or more. From 30th November 2019 these provisions will prohibit the remote pilot from flying the small unmanned aircraft, and the SUA operator from causing or permitting it to be flown, unless the SUA operator has a valid certificate of registration and the registration number is displayed on the aircraft (see new articles 94C and 94D) and the remote pilot has a valid acknowledgement of competency (see new articles 94E and 94F). Certificates of registration and acknowledgements of competency will be issued by the Civil Aviation Authority, but they will not be required to accept applications before 1st October 2019." So the CAA don't have to provide a pilot/operator registration scheme til 1st Oct '19, but everyone who needs to has to have registered and passed the necessary competency exams by 30th Nov the same year?!! What could possibly go wrong... Ps - Yes, I know it isn't clear what form the competency test will take or whether BMFA/LMA/FPVUK members will be deemed to have met it already simply through membership. I personally think that is highly unlikely, but even if it were the case just getting the required paperwork in to the CAA electronically or in writing would be very difficult in such a short period. Edited By MattyB on 02/06/2018 02:40:07 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattyB Posted June 2, 2018 Share Posted June 2, 2018 Further useful links... Homepage of the ANO changes - all docs and materials Explanatory memorandum on the changes and rationale (plainish english, probably the best doc if you want to actually understand the goals and impact of the changes in the ANO) Edited By MattyB on 02/06/2018 02:53:46 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Member Posted June 2, 2018 Share Posted June 2, 2018 [This posting has been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Member Posted June 2, 2018 Share Posted June 2, 2018 [This posting has been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Fox Posted June 2, 2018 Share Posted June 2, 2018 Looks as though the proposal is not to ask for remote pilots to register, but rather the operator - which could be deemed to be your club. At least that approach would reduce the number of applications - or should I say ratification of existing data held by the BMFA on our behalf? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Member Posted June 2, 2018 Share Posted June 2, 2018 [This posting has been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattyB Posted June 2, 2018 Share Posted June 2, 2018 Posted by Steve J on 02/06/2018 07:42:30: Posted by MattyB on 02/06/2018 02:33:09: So the CAA don't have to provide a pilot/operator registration scheme til 1st Oct '19, but everyone who needs to has to have registered and passed the necessary competency exams by 30th Nov the same year?!! What could possibly go wrong... I would not be surprised if the registration system has already been written by NATS UTM partner. I also would not be surprised if the CAA/NATS got the specification for it wrong. The registration number format is (EASA AMC/GM document), so they could make things easy for themselves, time will tell if they do so. Maybe, but I think it’s the online competency piece within 2 months that’s the real hurdle. Even if pilot/operator registration is done via the BMFA/LMA/FPVUK I just cannot see the authorities granting their members an exception to the testing; after all there is no mandatory testing on joining the BMFA or any of the other associations as far as I am aware. Given the demographic profile of aeromodelling there is definitely going to be a decent percentage of people who can’t or won’t want to complete an online test; clubs can probably support those members to achieve certification within the time via a club night or two, but for lone flyers that won’t be an option. I can definitely see a small percentage of people taking these new regs as a cue to retire from the hobby and move on to something else. Edited By MattyB on 02/06/2018 10:47:04 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisB Posted June 2, 2018 Share Posted June 2, 2018 If there ends up being a visibility system for each model aircraft the man from the ministries screen will be full with thousands of little dots. That’ll soon become tiresome! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Member Posted June 2, 2018 Share Posted June 2, 2018 [This posting has been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Member Posted June 2, 2018 Share Posted June 2, 2018 [This posting has been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Member Posted June 2, 2018 Share Posted June 2, 2018 [This posting has been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Member Posted June 2, 2018 Share Posted June 2, 2018 [This posting has been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattyB Posted June 2, 2018 Share Posted June 2, 2018 Posted by MattyB on 02/06/2018 02:52:54: Further useful links... Homepage of the ANO changes - all docs and materials Explanatory memorandum on the changes and rationale (plainish english, probably the best doc if you want to actually understand the goals and impact of the changes in the ANO) I posted the links above halfway up this page Dave - everything you need should be in the explanatory memorandum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator Posted June 2, 2018 Share Posted June 2, 2018 For the solo pilots flying outside a club this is likley to have a major effect. But for club flyers I suspect the following will happen: 1. Registration will be satisfied by membership of a recognised governing body - BMFA, LMA, etc. 2. 400ft rulle will be waived on registered club flying sites as llong as not in controlled airspace (effectly no change) 3. Members of model aero clubs with an established safety track record, flying from a registered sites, will not have to register models. I fully expect all this in announcement from BMFA in due course - soon would be nice! Remember the ANO is not law in the sense of being passed by parliament. Its official status is that it is a "statutory instrument". It describes how the CAA will enforce what is the law in practice and one very important clause in it allows the CAA to grant anyone an excemption from any of its provisions (bar a handful). So, be a little patient, stop panicing. All this stuff we have now is for commercial operators. Our bit will come out later when BMFA and CAA agree the excemption terms and how it is going to be administaered and I believe there is good will on both sides to do that. Until then, just go flying,.... BEB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Member Posted June 2, 2018 Share Posted June 2, 2018 [This posting has been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisB Posted June 2, 2018 Share Posted June 2, 2018 As BEB says and as many people have been saying, the regs are aimed at the amazon and birthday brigade. The CAA are still working through the details. Their focus is not aeromodelling its the new breed of ‘leisure users’. No need to panic. It’ll all be ok. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Member Posted June 2, 2018 Share Posted June 2, 2018 [This posting has been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator Posted June 2, 2018 Share Posted June 2, 2018 One change that I think is lekely to happen is that in discussions CAA may well push for a competance test for model flyers. They may feel that not to do so would be a n excemoption too far! Now BMFA could offer the A-cert, and I actually believe CAA would be satisfied with that. I can tell you that having done the "commercial test" as approved by CAA its actually easier than an A-cert! But there is a problem for BMFA there. They have always been very careful to promote this as an "achievement scheme" not a test or "right of passage". Yes many clubs - including my own - do use it as that. At my club you cannot fly solo unless you have an A-cert - you must fly with an instructor. But of course this is absolutely not BMFA Policy, nor is it enacted by many other clubs - and that's their right. But the "price" for basically being left alone may be that the A-cert becomes a compulsary competance test in every club. I can see that raising a few hackles! BEB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Member Posted June 2, 2018 Share Posted June 2, 2018 [This posting has been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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