Why RC? Why not FF?

[perttime]

Where I live, the only way you can fly a proper long flight with a modern high tech FF model is to do it on a large frozen lake in winter. Anything else means you are have to dethermalize early to keep it from going into the trees.

Spectating at an F3A aerobatics contest today, I had a chat with an older fellow preparing sausages for the lunch break. He said that you can get quite a bit of exercise at a FF duration contest, following and retrieving your model.

[FFPete]

 

Posted by fly boy3 on 29/08/2020 13:51:07:

Hi FFPete, I love all things model flying. Any pictures of the modern up to date models you speak of ? Non cabin type models I presume. Cheers

 

Hi fly boy, of course! Perhaps one way to illustrate it is to look at the progress of the humble rubber-powered aeroplane. The model below is called the Jaguar from the 1940s, it won the World Championship back then. I think most RC flyers would recognise that as a balsa-and-tissue "typical" Free Flight model.

 

The next aeroplane is a direct descendant of that "class" of model, flown in world championships. It has evolved to have a fully carbon fibre moulded 1.8 metre span wing on a foam core, with very high aspect ratio for efficiency. The rubber is inside the kevlar tube at the front. The rear of the fuselage is either carbon or rolled thin aluminium for lightweight and stiffness. The fin and tailplane do contain some balsa! But they are also big on the composite materials and are covered in a lightweight "mylar" plastic film. The folding propeller blades are made from carbon fibre and the front aluminium hub is a torque-actuated variable-pitch unit. The wing is mounted on a carbon fibre pylon containing an electronic multi-function timer, servos, radio dethermaliser receiver, tracking beacon and GPS receiver/transmitter.

Such a model uses only 30 grams of rubber, but will fly for over 5 minutes without a thermal. The comparison with the 1940s Jaguar is like comparing Lewis Hamilton's F1 car to a Morris Minor!!

Edited By FFPete on 29/08/2020 14:59:59

[FFPete]

Posted by Bob Cotsford on 29/08/2020 14:13:50:

Perhaps as the majority of club modellers are 'sports' and 'fun flyers' rather than active competition participants the old stick and tissue stuff is actually more relevant to most? Possibly the high-tech stuff is why RC flyers tend to skip over the FF pages, they just don't relate to it.

Hi Bob, I appreciate that. And the picture of the model I've just posted is the all-singing all-dancing version at the top end ! That doesn't detract from the fact that many of those advances filter into simpler, fun models to help them to fly better, more safely and easier to control/find. In my opinion, you could still fly a "sports" or "fun flyer" model that's safe, high performance, can be brought down on command and retrieved easily. In fact, that's what many people do! It's a shame that cabin models flown as they were in the 1940s and 50s still somehow dominate perception, I'd like to know how to shift that!

[FFPete]

Posted by wingcoax on 29/08/2020 14:14:33:

As was told to me many years ago at Primrose Valley modelling week by a number of the older generation who were flying freeflight models.".Radio is only a means of ensuring the model lands in the same county"

In a thermal, it's true that things can get unpredictable. But with radio dethermaliser (DT), you have the option to press the button early and get out of it... Without a thermal, the above quote is simply not correct and can only have been said for amusement. The model is on its way down, you can see its surroundings and pick a moment to DT. The models then come down at a very steep angle slowed by the wing, on a bearing not far from where you pressed the button

Edited By FFPete on 29/08/2020 14:49:58

Edited By FFPete on 29/08/2020 15:01:44

Edited By FFPete on 29/08/2020 15:02:34

[fly boy3]

Wow, I did not expect those pics, things really have moved on. Your comparisons seem spot on FF. Pictures are one good way of changing perceptions, perhaps a vid. of these models inflight too ? Thanks

[FFPete]

Posted by perttime on 29/08/2020 14:28:23:

Where I live, the only way you can fly a proper long flight with a modern high tech FF model is to do it on a large frozen lake in winter. Anything else means you are have to dethermalize early to keep it from going into the trees.

Spectating at an F3A aerobatics contest today, I had a chat with an older fellow preparing sausages for the lunch break. He said that you can get quite a bit of exercise at a FF duration contest, following and retrieving your model.

Nowadays, it's not beyond technology for the slightly larger models to have onboard electronics to steer the model near to the launch point. That helps with both the flying site problem and with retrieving, perhaps something FF needs to consider?

[FFPete]

Posted by fly boy3 on 29/08/2020 14:47:15:

Wow, I did not expect those pics, things really have moved on. Your comparisons seem spot on FF. Pictures are one good way of changing perceptions, perhaps a vid. of these models inflight too ? Thanks

Hi fly boy, glad you liked it! As I said in another reply above, you don't want to be *so* advanced that it puts people off. There is of course a spectrum of approaches, depending on what you're interested in.. At a minimum, though, FF flyers really should be using tracker beacons and radio dethermaliser on well-trimmed models. I can post some more pics or videos later. I've been on this thread for hours now, it's fascinating, but I have other things to do this weekend. I will pick it up later

[Tosh McCaber]

As a matter of interest, Pete, how much would a state of the art carbon job like the one that you've shown, cost? Presumably factory made?

[Geoff S]

Posted by kc on 29/08/2020 12:50:34:

Why go by bus when you can drive your own car!

Oddlly enough I use the bus a lot because it means I can walk one way and bus it back.

I've had a look round the free flight section in the BMFA tent at the Nats and admired the high tech aspects of the competition models. But once competition raises its head in any field it's time to open your wallet if you need to win or even do well. I used up my (semi)serious chops motor cycling and sailing with less seious intent pedal cycling, bridge and model yachting so I'm not interested in competing free flight. Moreover I enjoy being able to control my models whilst they're in the air and I build a lot of them.

I can admire the skills of freeflight without any desire to join their ranks.

Geoff

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Cuban8]

FFPete....

You question whether R/C would be as active as it remains without ARTFs? Without a shadow of a doubt IMHO, R/C would be a dead duck now if it wasn't for ready to fly models (wood construction) appearing at affordable prices twenty or so years ago. Even that has moved on in recent years to give us foam models of all sorts and sizes and to suit a wide variety of tastes and requirements.

As an example - I think that the model that has given me most fun per £ is my Hobbyking EDF foamy Vampire - ages old, dead easy to fly, still going strong and looks brilliant scudding along on a 'Farnborough pass". Not bad for a little over a hundred quid. I've sweated buckets over scale plans and kit builds, spent too much and had my knees knocking when flying some models with a lot of time and money invested. Nice when it all works out, but the attraction of that little Vampire and other similar models is significant. From the two clubs that I belong to, so about a couple of hundred members, those under the age of 40 will tend to go for ARTFs or foamies (high performance EDF is the latest craze) and show little interest in putting a trad kit together of any sort. The older remaining members will be mixed ready to fly and build and those few mainly older chaps TBH, who wouldn't be seen dead with ready to fly of any description. An over simplification of course, but not too far off the mark, I'd guess.

[Martin Dilly 1]

This is a leaflet that explains the object of competition free-flight. (Sorry it's sideways). Put at its simplest, it's purely objective, - no judging, nobody's opinion involved, simply a stopwatch to show how well you've done. Apart from pylon racing and some soaring classes, most of RC involves somebody expressing an opinion of the flight and/or the model, even if it's the flyer himself.

[Martin Dilly 1]

Not sure why I didn't turn these round the first time.

[David Davis]

FFPete I appreciate that modern ff competition models are so much more robust than the old stick and tissue jobs but perversely if I had to have a ff competition job I'd be much more likely to build a Jaguar, pictured in one of your posts yesterday than to pay someone in eastern Europe to make me a carbon fibre job. R/C gliders are not really my thing either but I have spent some time on the slopes flying a Great Planes "Spirit," while other not-too-friendly types flew their carbon fibre jobs which were impressive in their aerobatic ability but did I want one? Not a chance, I'd prefer to build a Phase 6 or even a Thermalist or Sunspot.

I'm not totally stuck in the past I even own three ARTFs: an electric foamy trainer and a Seagull Boomerang i/c trainer with which I train beginners and a Chris Foss Acrowot but generally I prefer to build my own models out of balsa and plywood. It's just the way I was taught and I get considerable satisfaction out of the building process, overcoming constructional problems and chosing colour schemes. Curiously enough my latest model was originally a free flight model. It's a Vic Smeed Tomboy drawn up double size by my late uncle. I maidened it yesterday and marvelled at the way it just seemed to hang in the air! My next project is a DB Sport & Scale Auster.

Finally to competitions. I had to remain competitive all my working life in order to keep a job and now in my retirement I'm blowed if I'm going to compete in what is for me a light hearted past-time.

However, there is one exception. I have competed in La Coupe Des Barons for the last two years. La Coupe Des Barons, the Barons' Cup in English, is a competition for the classic French trainer the "Baron 1914" which is a cartoon-scale model of a WW1 monoplane fighter with greatly enlarged tail surfaces. Eighty places are available and competitors fly in groups of ten. There are quite comprehensive rules restricting modifications and engine sizes. There are four rounds to the competition. In the first one you have to knock over 1 metre high balsa wood sticks. The second round is a pylon race and then we stop for a four-course French lunch washed down with a couple of glasses of wine. The third round is a "Chasse Renard" in which a trainer slowly tows a crepe paper streamer and you have to try and cut it with your propeller. Finally there is the limbo in which you have to fly through a big goalpost. The competition does not demand great skill but lots of models are wrecked in the process then again they're not very expensive to build and it's all part of the fun even though it's a seven hour drive from my home! This video of the 2017 event will give you some idea of what goes on. **LINK**

In conclusion, I'm ok with a lighthearted competition for cheap models but free flight of any description? Sorry my knees won't take it anymore.

PS. I finished in 53rd position in the 2018 Coupe Des Barons and 50th in the 2019 event so I'm making progress! This year's event has been cancelled because of the Corona Virus.

[David Ashby - Moderator]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I could imagine RC flyers would tend to skip over the FF sections, or are simply unsure what they're looking at on the page.

So one thing I guess FF needs to think about is how to be more visible and how to communicate the modern side to people! Clearly the old balsa-and-tissue stuff (which is still regularly flown safely and well, with radio dethermaliser and tracking beacon) very much drives the perception, and what I would call the "sports" or "fun flyer" segment rather than competition flying.

The trick is writing for both experienced free flights and beginners, which isn't easy.

Pete, great thread and, funnily enough, I built FF models during lockdown - a peanut and a KK Gypsy. In the process I stocked up on more kits for next winter. Nothing has flown yet but thoroughly absorbing they were.

Have you thought about approaching KC (mag editor) with a view to writing something for RCM&E? When I was editor I intentionally ran FF pieces every now and then for a bit of variety and because I know many R/C flyers either do FF too every now and then or they'd done it in the past. A series demystifying aspects of FF and bringing the old hands up to date would, I'm sure, be appreciated.

We ran a KK Ajax duration comp at my club last year and although most entries were from those who remember the kit being launched (), a couple of young guys had a go having never built from sticks and tissue (let alone FF). So, as you say, it's a case of hammering home the message in an accessible way and doing it relentlessly.

I'd like to know more about the modern FF model in your pic, are kits available?

David.

[perttime]

At the minimalist side of FF, in some areas there are scenes for small catapult launched gliders, in the outdoors. Here, people are flying to 60 second "max" using 16" and 18" gliders, a stick, and a bit of rubber. They do it as home field contests, with results for 5 flights emailed or posted on a forum.

[David perry 1]

I really admire FF people, especially when i see the model climb clockwise then descend anticlockwise and land on the strip. BUT...I dont think thats usual. And I enjoy piloting my models around, even if its only on rudder. I love Rc, always have, always will.

[Richard Acland]

Space is the problem. I was brought up on free flight and control line, progressing to R/C as the budget allowed. I have compromised by building a free flight design and fitting lightweight radio gear so that I can use it at my field. I realise that this does not sit well with FF purists but the space in my area is not there for real FF. Like others I still love to watch the FF scale at the Nationals and am amazed at the sheer skill of the builders and their nerve at letting something so perfect fly off on its own.

[Thomas Higgins]

Having first enjoyed aeromodelling from my schooldays in the fifties when radio control was an expensive black art I was happy to enjoy free flight and control line. While I agree on the pleasure of RC flying I still build the non radio side.

[Tim Hooper]

Our club field doesn't lend itself to 'pure' free flight. Neither do my knees.

However, during the lockdown, I've made a substantial foray into trad, rubber-powered modelling in the shape of the Ripmax/Keil Kraft Gipsy.

It's been great fun to tackle this lightweight airframe. Adding a micro rx and servo, together with a tiny 1S lipo added less than 12grammes to the weight, and means I can keep the model within the limits of our strip.

I replaced the supplied 12" prop...

....with a 17" carved balsa item. The supplied rubber was changed for 35 feet of 1/4" rubber, to give 16 strands.

So far we're up to 400 turns on the motor (using a modified hand drill), and the Gipsy has sparked my interest to go further down the rubber, FF route.

Tim

[Jonathan M]

Top job Tim.

For anyone interested in the magical dark arts of rubber I'd highly recommend Don Ross' book:

**LINK**

[David Davis]

Have any of you seen this bloke before? He builds small rubber powered models, fits the smallest radio imaginable to control the rudder and flies them in a park in the middle of New York City! Some of the flights exceed two minutes. For those too impatient to watch the build, the flying starts at about 11.30.

**LINK**

You have to admire the skill!

Edited By David Davis on 04/09/2020 06:29:43

[mal brewer]

Nice looking 'Gypsy ', Tim. Is that a 'free-wheeling' propeller, if not, what are the look like rubber bands near the prop hub ?.........................Mal

[Tim Hooper]

David,

The gent's name is Larry, and he's been posting videos for ages. He's been very helpful to me and my Gipsy build over the last few weeks.

He's also fitted a camera to a rubber-powered model, and there's footage of it flying over Manhattan in this video. Scroll to 5 mins in;

**LINK**

Mal, yes that's a free wheeling balsa prop. The bands you see are actually thread bindings to hold the clutch/freewheel in place.

I have to confess that, after years of flying electric aeroplanes, I'm really enjoying this new facet of the hobby!

Tim