Tail heavy plane.

[Jason Hopson]

 I was out at the local field last Sunday and managed to crash my stuka.The reason I believe it crashed was from being to tail heavy.I was all out of zip ties and I just used velcro strips to hold my battery in place.The first flight the plane was a bit tail heavy and was very hard to fly but managed to set it down with no damage.The second flight I put the battery up a little higher and it was flying much better that's right about when I decided to turn off the dual rates.I was really liking this plane until it went into a flat spin and there wasn't any thing I could do to get it out of it.I was hopping that one of you expert flyer's might no a secret to getting out of a flat spin? I believe that the battery slipped to the far back of the plane making it very tail heavy.If a plane it to tail heavy is it basically out of control?

[Tim Mackey]

last Q first...YES There is a saying something like this...

"nose heavy flies poorly, - tailheavy flies once" 

Some models ( and full size ) are notoriuosly dicfficult to get out of a flat spin, and if your battery had shifted a lot, then attempting a recovery was futile. You MUST secure your packs with more than  simple velcro. I use the velcros straps which loop right around the pack and are anchored into a ply plate.

Bad luck  there jason, hope it hasn't dented your enthusiasm too much. The Stuka is a cool 'plane, and a friend and clubmate has a very large scale comp winning beauty scratch built from the Ziroli plan, with working sirens the lot. - pics here somewhere  

[Ernie]

Hi Jason, bad luck, but you can learn a lot from your experience..Preflight checks are ESSENTIAL, yes timbo, I'm shouting You cant leave anything to chance, the slightest malfunction means a black bag job.

Lecture over, and yes, tail heavy is a tiger by the tail for a very short time

ernie

[Former Member]

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[Jason Hopson]

Hehe that's a good saying Timbo I will have to remember that one.

 Dented my enthusiasm ,"never..". That just gave me an excuse to build another one

 I have already fixed the stuka ,"got to love balsa ".There isn't any thing a bottle of ca glue can't fix hehe.

 I will have to remember that Eric.I sure hope my Bros didn't get it on film but I am sure they will be showing me the replay on it.Maybe now I can sound like I know what I am talking about..

                                                                                                                             Thanks for the info guys

                                                                                                                                                        Jason H.

[John Sheehy]

I've been trying to get into a flat spin for some time.  Many years ago I saw a competition at Old Warden where the planes were taken up to height and put into a flat spin.  The winner was the plane with the most flat spins before pullout.  I've been trying to do this ever since (excluding 25 year layoff form hobby).  Any ideas how to do this without loosening the battery?

[Tim Mackey]

I know someone who can get you into a flat spin - but sure if she would be willing to do it !

Morning dear

Just whack some lead on the rear end ( of the 'plane ) In my earlier flying days, I was comp secretary and the one that used to see off the most models was the timed flat spin  - I myself lost several models leaving it just that little bit too long before trying to neutralize everything before meeting terra firma.

[David Ashby - Moderator]

That's your flying pass revoked 

[Tim Mackey]

nah....she hasnt read it  - YET!

[Phil Claridge]

my freind had a clipped wing cub that would flat spin easily we counted 28 in one flight . he refuelled and tried to go for 30, sadly no 29 was into concrete the elevator survived though

[John Sheehy]

So how is it done?  opposite rudder and aileron with some up elevator?

[Jason Hopson]

It's just like Eric said

Quote: If you are VERY lucky, and can wack on full power, neutral rudder and ailerons, and some down elevator, you Might get the spin to stop - eventually!  Usually the ground gets in the way first, though.

I know this works because I had to use it last Sunday.My friend talked me into thinking the balance points where further back then I had them.So I decided to put the battery back about 2inch.A big mistake on my part right when I took off I could tell it was tail heavy.I got some altitude and killed the throttle and the left wing dipped hard going right into another flat spin..But this time I had one advantage Eric's tip.So instead of flailing the sticks around trying to control the spin I just hit full throttle and a little down elevator and it slowly started to pull out.Right about 6ft. from the ground It leveled out and slowed down.That's when I decided it would be better to crash at 6ft. and not 60ft. I managed to set it down but it wasn't on the runway ,"he-he".I got minor damage and have already fixed my Stuka.Thanks to this forum and Eric's advice.

[John Sheehy]

When I say how is it done I mean how do I induce a flat spin? Control movements not just tail heavy.

[Former Member]

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[John Sheehy]

Thanks Eric, I'll try it when I'm feeling brave and I'll bring along a black plastic bag, just in case.

[Gemma Jane]

Hi Eric, interested that you say do not use the ailerons to recover from a flat spin, usually it is advised to use into turn aileron on full size to recover from the flat spin as it induces a yaw in the opposite direction to the turn.

There is an article in the recent LAA magazine about the Tipsy Nippy that went into a flat spin not far from back garden. In the article the pilot relates to Alan Cassidy's book 'Better Aerobatics' which gives the following recovery from a flat spin:

1: Full opposite rudder

2: Full throttle

3: Full in-turn aileron

4: Forward stick

I wonder if anyone is brave enough to try it with their model!

Out of interest the pilot filmed his experience, it makes for interesting watching:

G-ONCS

Fortunately the pilot escaped with injury.

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Gemma Jane]

I feel the need for some experimentation Eric  I did have a go in Phoenix yesterday putting the C of G right back on some of the models but found it very difficult to get them to enter a stable flat spin, not sure if the programmers would have gone so far as to model the dynamics of a flat spin of if it is just a lack of stick skill on my part, but generally all I had to do was release the controls to recover. Learnt a lot about what happens to the stability of a model when the C of G is aft though

Spinning full size is something I've yet to try, your right though that the none of the recovery techniques work for all types, hence I guess why spins still claim lives and occasionally models.

PS it should have said in my last post 'without' injury, finger trouble again

[Former Member]

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[Gemma Jane]

Not sure Eric as to the reason the CAA took it out of the syllabus. I have heard a number of suggestions from the training causing more accidents than it prevents to the lack of height available now in the UK due to all the airspace restrictions to the fact that if spinning is taught in the syllabus it encourages people to go out and do it without an instructor when qualified with nasty results.

The aircraft I qualified in was a 161 Warrior which is not cleared for spinning so it wasn't something I covered at all in my course, only stall and incipient spin recovery. Hoping this year to get some time doing aeros in Chipmunks, so naturally spinning will be part of the fun

[batcho99]

Spinning is deffinately not in the full size syllabus at the mo, thank god!! Stall recovery was bad enough!

Jason, once in your flat spin, to recover fast, just bang sticks neutral then opposite rudder, seems to do the trick for all 'Wot' aircraft. Oh, and Wot4's are awesome to flat spin, acrowots little bit more difficult

[Doug Ireland]

Don't know why they took it out of the syllabus, a Cessna 152 has a heck of a spin rate! The boring bit was having to fly straight and level afterwards for about ten minutes until the gyros caught up with themselves.

[batcho99]

Ha ha  Never done a spin, didn't have the capability in the PA38's I trained in, or the PA28. Mind you, wasn't far off spinning during a few stall recoverys!

Hope you get the problem sorted Jason.

[Ady Hayward]

Hi,

Each aircraft whether model or fullsize will have its own characteristics for spin entry/ recovery. Entry methods vary from the normal stall then full rudder in to the wing drop, approach the stall then apply increasing amounts of rudder holding off the resultant  roll with aileron until the stall and spin entry to more aggressive applications of control input to induce a spin.

Recovery also has many variants ie the classic ailerons neutral, forwards stick and full opposite rudder. The Robin 2160 requires ailerons central, back stick and opposite rudder for spin recovery! Check out the pilots notes for the various types to see.

 The flat spin also requires different exit control inputs. I've experienced with a certain model an increase in spin rate when down elevator is applied despite full opposite rudder! This would come out in around a turn and half if full up elevator was applied with opposite rudder. The elevators masked the rudder when in the down position.

 

As has been said before aim to finish the manoeuver at least acouple of recoveries high, and have a plan of control inputs to use if the first attempt fails to have the desired result.

 

Happy spinning

 

Adrian

 

 

Edited By Adrian Hayward on 11/07/2009 12:00:19

[BB]

Went to the patch on Friday and saw a 'converted' 70" span free flight (circa 1957).  It was massively tail heavy.  But the guy who maidened it (YEAH - MAIDENED IT)  flew a circuit like a FAT DOVE , up and down.  But landed it ok without damage.  Proof that there is plenty of skill in this ' hobby'.

 

BB