Hangar 9 Sopwith Camel

[Danny Fenton]

sounds like a good plan that tube as you say is not impreganated with resin at all. It just makes you wonder how other models are if you were to peel the covering back and look.

 

I really thought Hangar 9 was better than this........ It would be interesting to know whether the newer ones are any better?

[Terry Whiting]

Timbo,

Sorry I have not kept up with your thread.

What is the overall length of the wing spar tube?. For assembly do you slide the spar tube through the fuselage, then slide on the wing panels?

Reason for asking , if this is the procedure  I would think  the tube in the fuselage is only for a guidance, and requires no actual strength, the supporting strength has to be the fuselage sides. On my Strutter I only made paper guide tubes.

 

I would make two 3/16" ply strengtheners which are a good slide fit to the tube spar.

These would be aventually be glued on the  insde the fuselage sides.

Make the existing fuselage tube holes oversize, slide the spar tube in slip on both ply strengtheners for inside  fuselage fixing. Assemble  the top wing checking the geometry

with the tail plane, now assemble lower wing, jig to correct geometry, and dry run fit interplane struts, once  satisfied glue into position ply strengtheners

 

 

 

 

[philfly]

Tim i have been reading your blog with interest, you must be tearing your hair out!

Anyway i was wondering is it the fact that the lower wing dihedral is incorrect that has caused all of the aparent problems with the cabane strutts missalignments?

 

It would be agonising if you sort the lower wing only to discover the cabanes where correct in the first place

[Tim Mackey]

Terry its not the fusealge thats the problem. The tube in the fuse is fine and also straight and level. The joiner spar is glued permanently into one wing panel, which then passes through the fuselage,and the other panel is slid onto the spar.

I then lock the wing panels with the brace as suggested by you earlier in the thread.

 The problemn is with the dihedral angle of one wing panel compared to the other, and this is down to the geometry of the tube in one panel being at the wrong angle.

Come on Terry...keep up mate 

I actaully received a reply from HH this morning...offering to exchange the two panels! - but have decided to carry on with the modifications I already started. I have this morning found some aluminium tube of the correct internal dimensions to accept the spar rod snugly, so will cut a piece of this and use it as the wing socket tube following the idea I mentioned above.

 

Despite the issues with the model itself, I have to congratulate HH on their great customer service / after sales policies yet again .

[Stephen Grigg]

1 club member only flies Bi planes.He took his biggest model with him,found a car it fitted and bought the car to suit  the model.So there is your answer Timbo,a Transit van for the family transportI bought an old Galaxy and use that, but Im updating it for a Voyager I just took inPX,then when I sell the Galaxy Ill have money for another model

[Danny Fenton]

I know what you mean Stephen, I am locked into a Mondeo estate as its the only car that my two warbirds will fit in. I was chatting to John Ranson about this very subject and he chooses his car by the load length, sod the colour or shape! what will it hold

 

Timbo Phil's comments about the bottom wing throwing the alignment out that you have had such trouble with, is it possible?

 

Cheers

Danny

 

 

[Tim Mackey]

Posted by philfly on 07/09/2009 13:19:07:

Tim i have been reading your blog with interest, you must be tearing your hair out!

Anyway i was wondering is it the fact that the lower wing dihedral is incorrect that has caused all of the aparent problems with the cabane strutts missalignments?

 

It would be agonising if you sort the lower wing only to discover the cabanes where correct in the first place

 Indeed Phil - I am certain that this did contribute a lot to the strut problems earlier, although there was still some misalignment of the drilled hole positions that will not be as a result of this. It stypical isnt it. The only thing I did not check ( and should not have to to ) was the dihedral angles of each lower wing relevant to the fuse...after all the prefitted large metal spar and accompanying fuselage tube would have all been jigged up correctly during assembly right? Wrong! If I had spotted this earlier, I would have her finished and probably flown by now

As for the cabanes, I think I can still get away with the originals, ( even slightly modified as I did ) but the interplanes will have to be replaced with something, as I cut down 3 of the 4 and redrilled and sleeved the fixing holes. No doubt these will now be way too short when everything is aligned as it should be - the originals seem to be made of a very light wood - but denser and stiuffer than balsa.. so not sure how I replicate them yet - but that not a biggy, I may simply use aluminium strip, and clad it in balsa then shape and varnish. I am going to take this oppertunity to make up larger fitting tabs also, which will take a less fiddly 4 mm crosshead screw rather than the really piddly little imperial thread socket head things supplied.

Should be harder to lose in the grass

 

 As for transport... 'fraid I am too much of a car nut to choose a vehicle just based on model transport requirements - but I do wish Lexus had at least given me folding rear seats in the IS250

Edited By Timbo - Moderator on 07/09/2009 13:59:30

[Terry Whiting]

Timbo,

Yes  I understood the problem is within the wing, but  I can not see how  you can  make the lower wing look geometrically correct, without making the correction within  the fuselage, in your case  repositioning your aluminium tube within the  fuselage either to lower the high wing or raise the lower.

This is what I was suggesting less the aluminium tube.

[Tim Mackey]

By removing the existing tube, and replacing it with one set at a different angle within the root and next two ribs. I elongated the second and third rib holes, which angles the tube differently, allowing the wing to "drop" lower from the horiizontal at the root.

I plumbed everythingup level and straight fuselage wise, and set the top wing level and parallel to it. I attached the other wing panel with spar right through the fus, and measured the exact distance at a given point out along the wing panel. Two pieces of cotton were cut to exact same lengths with weights attached as a plumbline -and one was attached to the relevant top wing and allowed to drop and just touch the already fitted lower wing panel. Then the second string was attached at the exact same spot on the other top wing panel, and the modified wing panel and its tube was slid on the spar, with the tube epoxied ( but still viscous ) in the wing rib holes. Holding the airframe steady and still, and confirming all was still level, the lower wing was then "jacked up" from the floor with a telescopic tube until it just touched the hanging string. The epoxy was allowed to set, and the panel removed. Further bracing and epoxy was then applied to the tube to ensure it stays put.  Hope that makes sense

 

The new tube is shown below.

 

[dbasP]

Interesting thread Timbo, can I ask what you use the glass powder for?

 

also if you dont mind? after reading the thread I can tell you like to get things as near spot on as pos, have you thought about one of these I know thats pricey coz its a digi one and the first I found for you after reading your post, mechanical ones start at about £30ish, very easy to use just slid it to surface and take the reading, digi ones you can Zero at any height if you need a datum from somewhere one the model to somewhere else. ie you could if you wanted read the distance from the top of the cowl to the tip of the tail. (if for some reason you needed to!!! bad example but you get my drift)

 

hope its ok putting the link in.

 

Phil.

[Terry Whiting]

I couldn't have done it any better Timbo. ,  So much for factory jig built models     

[Tim Mackey]

Hi dbasP - I use the glass powder to alter the viscosity of the glue - stops it running off the joint if the work and joint area cannot be held level etc. Bit like microballons, but this stuff also adds strength to the glue, but iits only really useable where weight is not critical.

Thanks for the link - of course its OK to add it in the post I will consider it, and also a proper incidence meter would be a wise investment I think.

Terry.... I am sure you could

Incidentally, the reason I went this route rather than alter the fuse holes, is that I didnt want to alter the angle of the "good" wing panel at all, as according to info I gleaned from other owners, this was already at the correct dihedral.... changing the fuselage tube would create a "see-saw" effect, raising the low duff wing, but likewise raising the good un IYSWIM

 

[Terry Whiting]

Timbo,      Yes IDSWYM. good thinking

 

 

[Tim Mackey]

Well heres the results of todays work. The repaired wing was fitted and am happy to report that without any support from the interplanes the gap between top and bottom wings is now equal for both panels...HURRAH!

 

Old front interplanes lengthened back to somewhere near the original lengths... carbon fibre rods, then hard balsa fillets, all sanded to profile, before painting. New 4mm sleeve fitted at lower end hole to take larger 4mm screws. Both front struts made to the exact same length hole -hole to ensure wing gap stays consistent.

 

Two new rear interplane brackets made up from aluminium with extra piece technowelded on for thickness and then drilled and tapped 4mm - the idea being I will leave the tops of all four struts fixed to the top wing permanently, and the rear  lowers will be attached with 4mm screws, through the new larger strut tube and into the tapped bracket - no fiddly 2mm screws and nuts to lose at the field.

False rigging made up from dressmakers elastic, and new litho plate fixing tabs placed under strut brackets and onto undercarrigae legs. Small "S" hooks attached at loose end of each piece, and the other end of the cord permanently attached to top wing and cabanes as appropriate.

 

A final check of levels shows things to be pretty darn close...not perfect, but close enough I feel.

 

Whilst it sat on the garage floor, I checked the stagger of the top wing, and found it to be about 1/4" out side to side. This can be seen by viewing the two measuring strings

from above and noting the position of the weights relevant to the T/E of lower wing. I am going to live with that, as I am sure in practice things will be flexing at least that much during dogfighting

 

 

[Danny Fenton]

fantastic news Timbo, sounds like you will soon be needing something to chase around the skies.........Red and multiwinged?

 

Well done, and full marks for perseverance!

 

Cheers

Danny

[Tim Mackey]

Today I spent making up the new 2P1S "cell" and fitting and re-wiring into the existing 5 pack around the inside of the cowl area - and then making a new 6S balance plug and lead ( I had no 6s plugs left - so made one up from a 4s and a 2s ).

I then covered the lot with black gaffer tape so they dont appear so obvious through the dummy radial cylinder gaps.  Pictures tomorrow.

I then spent some time thinking about how to access the battery  / ESC connections for arming and disarming, and because the top wing makes access to the frontal inside hatch area a bt tricky, and I wanted to avoid overly long leads to  the rear of the hatch area, I decided to make a "power panel" type thingy. Two deans sockets set flush into a piece of ply, and wired up to provide a charging point and an "arming" link. A Deans plug was then "shorted across" with a piece of copper piping strap, and formed into a handle type affair, tethered on a piece of fishing line to avoid loss at the field. The rear of the panel /sockets were connected up as required with more flattened copper tube, to provide the necessary solder points for the cabling. As I had already butchered a small hatch area in the front cheeks, ( in order to replace the cabane strut fixings ) I enlargened this hatch, and fitted the power panel in the fuselage side. This will eventually have a hinged "inspection /access" hatch. At the strip, the hatch is dropped, and the deans plug inserted to the socket marked "ARM", this "makes" the positive lead connection from battery to ESC, like a heavy duty switch. I then redid the cabling inside the fuse, and fitted the panel and connected it all up and tested. The balance plug also exits at this point, and in flight, will simply tuck away behind the hatch cover - balancing is only done occasionally, and not at the field.

Heres the panel before fitting in the model.

and the rear of the panel.....

I am on the final stages of the model now, with the cowling and dummy engine to be finished,  radio gear to be planned and fitted, servos re-located from plan position to right up front ( in what would have normally been the battery bay ) to avoid adding weight aft of COG. Substitute lightweight C/F pushrods to made up, and closed loop rudder setup instead of the heavy steel wire pushrods supplied. Then its tail rigging ( functional ) UBEC and ESC  fitting and wiring, final motor thrustlines sorted, and bench testing to find the best prop on the new 6S power. Finally, the sound module will be bench tested, firmware updated, sound files loaded and synchronisation to throttle sorted etc, before installation and loudspeaker fitment.

 

More pictures tomorrow..

 

 

Edited By Timbo - Moderator on 11/09/2009 00:30:30

[Danny Fenton]

Hi Timbo, Looks great. Can I ask if those are genuine Deans? I made a very similar arming plug to this on my Seagull Sea Fury. The difference was i used the green Deans connectors from an unkown source. Anyway to make a short story long, the Deans connector actually passes all the current through a small sprung loaded contact. This failed just after taleoff and i lost all power. Fortunately I had a seperate Rx pack and managed a dead stick landing. I have subsequently changed my arming plug from Deans to 4mm plugs, a pair of males with a shorting link to arm. This has waorked faultlessly.

This is the original configuration with the green Deans, it was the male shorting plug that failed, this only showed up after a dozen flights. It could be reproduced by wiggling the deans connector, even though it felt tight, the internal connector had burned.

 

This is my revised solution, this works very well and has done another dozen flights without mishap. It turns out a bit easier to make as well

 

If your Deans are the genuine article Timbo it should be okay but it might be worth just looking inside the arming plug from time to time and giving it a wiggle.

 

Cheers

Danny

[Tim Mackey]

Hi Danny thanks for the heads up- the arming plug and socket are genuine Deans... but the charge socket is a clone. I bought a couple of sets of what were advertised as Deans... but seems they were not genuine - I have ditched them - and the dealer

I was 4mm gold corrollys on everything until a few months ago, when I decided for some reason that Deans were a better and neater idea, so was gradually changing over.

Now I am not so sure I will bother TBH - there are some situations when the individual gold plugs fit better into the wiring layout.

[Danny Fenton]

Yes I have strayed from 4mm Golds thinking there must be a lighter and better way to do things, but in the end have gone back.

 

When you start installing things like Jeti Duplex which needs a feed from the ESC, arming plugs and charging connectors all of a sudden you are using quite a few connectors on each model and the connectors, the cable and the solder all add up to a fair bit of additional weight.

 

If the access is good, the old fashined way of just grabbing the wires and seperating the connectors is still simplest IMO, the Fury Cowl did not lend itself to hatches at all.

 

Cheers

Danny

[Tim Mackey]

Bit more done this morning.

 

[Tim Mackey]

I was going to do the tail feathers and rigging today, but got way-laid on other domestic duties

Will be spending the morning doing those, and then I will be able to decide the location required for the radio gear to achive the balance point.

Have fitted ( physically ) the sound module, and UBEC , although not run any bench tests of the module yet.

Initial eagle tree data shows circa 600 Watts on a 15 x 8 prop but at the expected 9.5lb AUW, think I will test a 16 X 8 too, although something tells me that circa 65 watts per pound is not too far off the mark TBH.

[Danny Fenton]

That dummy radial looks the business Timbo  I have one on order from Vortex Vacforms for Percy the Pupeteer.

 

How are you getting on with the sound system? I have a Benedini in my Mustang, (If I ever get back to finish it) and they are awesome. You need to carefully consider the size of the soundbox for it to be really affective. Everything from the cockpit back to the tailwheel is sound box on mine, but I am using a Blaupunkt instead of the normal Visaton speaker, which means I am down a couple of dB's, but hopefully up on quality.

 

Cheers

Danny

[Tim Mackey]

Literally just fired her up for the first time a few minutes ago. I havent fitted the speaker in its final position yet, but so far, it sounds excellent. Lots of tweaking and fettling to do in software to get the guns fiing, and the engine start up sequence synch'd  to ESC and prop etc, but so far, sounds promising! Cant discuss the system much as its earmarked for a magazine review, and that has to be published before it gets on the forum IYSWIM.

[Danny Fenton]

Absolutely, Have fun

Cheers

Danny

[ken anderson.]

timbo-we've been sitting in the front row here reading about the up's and downs of the wing's ect-on complete tenderhook's-now you won't spill the bean's-it's like the cliffhanger ending at the old picture's.......Wait till nxt week etc...............

 

 

    ken anderson.......