Lipo prices

[Erfolg]

What is happening to Lipo battery prices. When I look at UK adverts, they seem to have stopped going down. With the exception of one North of England Manufacturer.

Yet when I look at sites from the Far East, prices appear to be still reducing.

I understand that most of the Cells are manufactured in either China or Singapore (could be Korea). These are then shipped to other countries for assembly into the battery packs that we know.

If this is so, then performance from the cells should be quite similar (within product range i.e. C rating).

It has also been suggested to me that one well advertised supplier has stopped supplying the public direct, so as to be able to "add value" by distributing via the trade. Hype and reassuringly expensive prices, are thought enough to consolidate the packs as market leaders.

If all or any of these things are true, is this "Rip of Britain" at its best. Will we be encouraged to buy abroad?

Competitive prices are good for British model shops. Inflated price structures result in USA type situations, where many modellers buy from abroad (although importing into the USA is not as punitively taxed as the UK, so I am lead to believe). I am aware of a small number of Internet Retailers, who serve us modellers well (one in the North East the other in the London area, there could well be others).

What do you think

[David Ashby - Moderator]

Yes I still think they're very expensive especially when larger applications are being considered.

Al's Hobbies seem to have some pretty good pricing on their Dualsky range mind. I've used one and it's been just fine.

I know many flyers who buy their i.c. motors from abroad (ebay etc) and given that Macgregors have just reduced the prices on Saito engines....did they feel the pinch I wonder?

David.

[Tim Mackey]

Although many of the packs contain the same cells ( Enerland for instance, which are some of the best if not the best ) they are NOT all equal. The better branded pack assemblers have more rigourous quality control demands, and get the better cells from the litter. Plus, the way a pack is assembled can vary, and the quality of welding /soldering of connector tabs and leads etc can all have an effect on the performance. There are some good budget priced packs out there, but beleive me, there are some real dogs too !

[scott cuppello]

Yeah, the promised price drop hasn't happened with Lipo's, yet motor's and ESC's seem to be getting cheaper all the time!

[Helidel]

I have recently bought a couple of 2200-3S Lipos from a far East "factory" at almost half the price of UK ones. Have used them both for the last 3 weeks and they are performing as well as my expensive UK ones!
Delivery was 10 days and carriage the same as from a UK source!!
I'll let you know if they deteriorate too soon.

[Tim Mackey]

interested to know how they hold up Derek...sounds like you found some good uns - let us have details if they prove good :)

[Erfolg]

I am pleased to read that some modellers will give a chance to the smaller brands.

I was recently reading about one of the Chinese retailers (seem to sell mainly to the USA) they were sourcing cells (from named) various respected manufactures and assembling the cells and packaging. There were some very good reports on the web about their life and apparent long term output and price.

I think the UKs long term danger is from the over hyped products from the USA in particular. These organisations market well, have great PR and will ensure that the magazines get access to the products. Their goods are good but pricey (with the Reassuringly Expensive factor).

I do fear for the small independent model shop who needs good margins to stay in business. But also needs to sell to get the profit. If they do not start selling the budget (but good products), purchasers may well shop even more via the Internet. All that will be left will be the big Mail Order model shops in the UK.

Why do I think this may happen? Because it will be far harder to control battery, speed controller and motor market than it was for ic model motors etc.

Regards

Erfolg

[Helidel]

Timbo
Ref my post on Lipos 10/07/07. (3S-2200's)
Have now run about 3 hrs thro them and they are holding up and delivering well. They've kept their balance better than my FP ones!
I use them in my Katana 30e and get on average 3 x 7 minute flights
without recharging 8-) (with about 30min rest between flights)
On re-charging I only put about 2/3rds back.

[Tim Mackey]

Sounds good Helidel :)

[Mark White]

Good morning all,

i only fly electric, i used to use the flight power evo25 2170 mah batterys but after a heavy landing and one got damaged i decided to try a battery i had seen advertised in another flight mag,by ACM Maverick li-po s.

i have since found them to be far better value and as good if not better than what i used before.

i use 11.1v 2100mah 15c s in my Seb art Katana 30e and get about 8 to 10 minute flights

regards Mark

[Tim Mackey]

GM Mark, and thanks for the endorsement of those packs... I have seen them advertised, and wondered about their quality. No doubt that more and more "new kids on the block" are appearing these days with what seem to be a genuine rival to the premium brands, and this can only be good for us all in the long run. I have also had success with the Dualsky range of packs  (  Als Hobbies stock 'em ) and chatting with Nathen Farrel Jones the other night down at our field, he too has found them to be well up to the job - and if you know the sort of planes he flys, you will know he doesnt take chances with batteries, or any other components in them for that matter!

[Erfolg]

This thread ties neatly with a parallel thread regarding charging/balancing plug configuration.

Your general observations on cell performance, fit nicely with my general hopes. That the difference between brands, would possibly be not worth fighting over (although I am sure some would).It seems that the balancing plugs are the final defence, of some of the big brand names.

Regards

Erfolg

[Tim Mackey]

Although I tend to also be pretty sceptical about many things, I do believe that there is a difference between the worst and the best

In the LiPo world currently ( pun intended ) Enerland cells are regarded as about the best. Now, many assemblers of LiPo packs, under many different names use Enerland cells, and some do not. The actual cell of course is only half the story, because if the pack is assembled with poor connecting starps /bars / wires / whatever, and the soldering / welding is not so good, you end up with a poor pack.  I t is almost impossible to tell which are good and which are bad and speaking only from experience, there are some dogs out there! I once tried a cheap H/Kong sourced Ebay special, claimed 2000m/a 20 C, when tested under moderate load ( 12A ) the voltage fell away instantly to around 10V

I binned them, and learnt a lesson I already knew having said that one or two new brands are impressing me lately, but I have to say, not for high drain applications.

[Myron Beaumont]

Erfolg    The more I read about these bl---y batteries the more sceptical I become day by day . Do you blame me  .None of you have convinced me to make the so- called "leap of Technological/green/ whatever progress " into  'lectric power  .So many variables & dodgy recounts of various folks's experiences.  Whew  -- I feel even more sure I'll wait 'til  more than one or two of you know how to get satisfaction &  results from what I see as an infant technology ( I mean for us mere mortals to adapt from the derivative reasons that they exist at all  ie mobile phonepower sources / military (out of date ) applications. WHEN is the next perfect battery due on the market  ?? NEXT WEEK  ???Probably the week after I ever buy one or a distributor runs out of a type/brand . SALE I think not ! && What charge state are they in before the arrive into your precious home build . Think I'll try inventing fire /scorch / lithium/cadmium/kryptonite/proof  paint   Then again  it would reduce ARTF sales .WE can't have that  Can we ??

Hope someone gets my point .  Think I'll wait 'til solar power is sorted ie watts vs weight . All that will be left then will be a few balsa trees protected by a few extremists (so-called) like me maybe  & dedicated re-cyclers of everyone's throw aways of the last weeks generation of "up to date people ".By which time all our soaring mates will be hurtling upwards on all the lovely thermals that are "man made""Sick of wingeing " !

Guess who?  No prizes -- NOT even a few old fashioned ni-cads that work

[Tim Mackey]

Myron.... stop being such a fuddy duddy old sceptic and embrace the 21st century

After all, anyone who likes PF MUST have sense

By the time you do make that "leap of faith" you will not be able to leap !! LOL

[Erfolg]

Timbo

I certainly agree there are differences between Lipos.

The question for me, what are the differences.

Are the differences substantial and important.

Yes there will be people trying to sell, poorer products, as a quality which only the label aspires to. I think primarily this occurs when the manufacturers( as apposed to assemblers) increase the performance of their products. A new standard is set. The old product is then often difficult to sell on. Small assemblers may be tempted to buy this product, at a discount and sell on with an inflated performance potential, printed on the label.

Yet there are companies in the far east, who are striving to establish there own brand products, that compare well with some of the European/USA brand names, at a fraction of the cost. They often have far better links and working relationships with the cell producers, who are often established in the same region 

How do we tell one from another. Well, site like this, the flying field, club meetings, some retailers (who are trusted), where experiences are exchanged.  In short collective knowledge and experiences.

I have seen expensive cells puffed up, with sad owners and happy bunnies with El Cheapo Lipos. Sometimes it is what has happened to the Lipo that is as important as who made it.

An Opinionated

Erfolg

[Myron Beaumont]

Timbo

What is PF I apparently like ?

ALBERT is painted & sorted  (see other thread)

There was a time when one could express one's point of view before being called a fuddy duddy  .Sorry I'm not endow'd with what i've seen of this (21 st )century . Has your DNA gone onto the up & coming data base yet .?  does it include foreigners (YES )

Does it include Welsh folks ? Yaki dah

[Tim Mackey]

Bora da Myron

Although born in and now once again living in Wales, my dear old Mum is from Preston, and me dear 'ol Dad is from Ireland by jeepers ! My wife was born in West Africa, lived all her adult life in London, and Staffs,  so not sure where my allegiance is !!

PF my friend AS YOU SHOULD KNOW as you claim to have covered their songs back when you were able to play a guitar or whatever, is Pink Floyd !

Yeh, have responded to Albert's new paint job over in that thread...are we gonna see pictures of him, or is he too shy?

OK, Not fuddy duddy, how about luddite

As the great Kenny Everitt would say..." all done in the BEST possible taste "  LOL

[Tazz]

I have FP batteries and Dualsky both in abundance.  I am reasonably happy with both except the FPs are twice as expensive.  I bought all my Dualsky at shows from Als Hobbies so special prices.

The latest tests from Germany show that the new Kokam H5 Lipos are truly the bees knees and actually give 20 and 30C.  They are made in South Korea.  Furthermore they are the only batteries i have seen that have posted on the internet their safety testing procedures (which are truly awesome,  150 deg C for an hour and a half etc..)

The Kokams are no more expensive than FP so i will be going KOKAM H5 for my heavu applications.  for referemce check out elektromellflug.de

[Michael Michailidis]

I have also bought batteries form the Far East (actually from ebay) in order to try to compare them with my EVO 2000 batteries. Now for a 3s 2200 20C pack for £22 (including delivery) I decided to give it a go and see if they are worth.

So far I have done about 25 flights with each pack (I bought 2) and I must admit I am quite impresed with the results. The performance I get is more or less the same as my EVO battery packs and after all these flights the batteries still perform the same.

there are a couple of drawbacks though:

• the packs are slightly heavier than the equivelant EVO packs (around 25gr)
• they tend to get slightly hotter from my EVO packs
• The voltage drop is slightly higher compared to the EVO packs (around 0.5V more)

the latest will obviously give you a slightly less power when compared to EVO.

 I am not saying they are the best of the batteries around but for what they cost they are brilliant. As long as someone is carefull with them (balance them regularly etc) and they operate within the specified limits they will perform as specified. even with the above mentioned drawbacks I can still justify buying them because of the price.

I don't know what people say but a battery is a battery. If you give it  the appropriate respect and attention it will last as long (or near) as any other bateries and will perform as any other battery.

[Tim Mackey]

I am afraid not Michael. Thats like saying a car is a car. Sure they all pretty much do the same job of getting you from A-B, but they are not all the same!

A battery is actually quite a complex  item. 
( I once worked for a short period  in a suppliers  MANY years ago, long before LiPos )

Quite apart from the actaul cell composition, durability, electrolyte density etc, the method used in turning those individual cells into a "battery" can vary a lot from one assembly plant to another. Factors such as choosing to use connector bars /strips / wires /braids/and indeed the material used for them, nickel, alloy, copper, steel, etc etc can make a big difference to internal resistance and therefore performance of the finished product.

Some assemblers solder, some weld. Like us mere consumers and modellers, some solder or weld better than others! Then you have the quality variables of items such as connector wires, number of strands used, gauge used, silicon covered ...... or merely plastic??

I am not saying all cheap packs are rubbish, but some definately are, there is a bit of luck involved when buying cheap unknown stuff ( as in most things in life ) and as I said earlier, I have found some excellent cheapo packs which I have used happily in some of my stuff.

Would I trust a £6k 1/3rd scale model with them? - NO

Its horses for courses, but there is a reason that so many airliners use RR engines, instead of Daewoo. JMTPW.

[Myron Beaumont]

Happy birthday  RR   

[Tazz]

You are right but not in the context you brought up.  I am not sullying FP batteries but i have found that they are not better than dualsky which are cheaper.  More important if you really want to bring up quality then consider this:

FP by their own admission use Enerland packs for their top rated range.  Enerland manufacture Polyquest and market them.  You can get Polyquest sligtly cheaper than FP albeit from the far east.  You think Polyquest are going to give FP their best lots?

I bought FP (8 in total 2150-2500 in 3s and 2s) because they are stocked by my local hobby shop.  Also FP have a good guarantee policy which I tested and found very good.

The only thing I reproach FP are the exagerated claims which are part and parcel of the Lipo industry.

Having said all the above i will continue to support FP and my local hobby shop whenever I can.