Erfolg Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 Reading my BMFA News, under"Chacksfield Chat", I came upon a column, advising on Lipo disposal. Now the advice may be sound, yet it could be as valid as suspecting that a Lipo is a "bomb" with a hair trigger, similar to nitroglycerin, waiting to explode with effects of a small nuclear device. The advice is that the device should be disposed of via the battery disposal facilities at your local tip (sorry refuse reprocessing facility). Why?, is it the polymer coverings, the minute quantity of lithium, copper leads. is it about recycling or prevention of ground water or land contamination. I do feel that the advice from the BMFA should be reasoned with a basis. On a similar vein, as one who uses, reusable shopping bags. I was surprised to here that the main issue with disposable plastic bags, is not that they will survive in the environment for 100s of years. As apparently in sunlight, they degrade by UV degradation, knocking of hydrogen bonds, the dangling carbon bond preferentially.............., In the ground they are no greater issue than many other stable materials. No the problem is that awakening the public to the cause of recycling and reducing raw material consumption. That was according to a government scientist talking with some other scientist. So I would like to know the whys, partly to ensure that I do behave reasonably, also I just like knowing and finally I can make my own mind up, I do not need others to do it for me (although others may tell me what I can do). Erfolg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Member Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 [This posting has been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erfolg Posted December 8, 2009 Author Share Posted December 8, 2009 Eric For me the issue, is what is the best thing to do. It is a bonus if the action can be classed as green. Yet without understanding the issues, who knows? I am not against recycling, yet have grave reservations, if the recycling costs more than virgin materials. Government can always make it very expensive to dispose of anything, it is not clever, any fool can do it, even I. I suspect this is a little like H&S, it easy to talk up the issues, in the present climate increasingly difficult to take a balanced view. Or even obtaining a balanced view, what is increasingly prevalent is the position of "Do as I tell you, any doubts should not be listened to, we know best". On a similar theme, my eldest granddaughter wanted to play conkers, with some chestnuts we gathered in a local wood. I thought it was quite reasonable to wear protective gloves, eye protection and I thought it would be far safer if we had something to protect our teeth. She said "you are silly grandad". Erfolg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romeo Whisky Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 Personally I think the plastic bag is the best invention since the wheel. (Apart from the aeroplane of course). Consider:- A container that weighs virtually nothing and can be kept in a pocket taking up virtually no room at all. An amazing invention that our pathetic control-freak-led nanny-government, (no doubt in cahouts with non-elected bureaucrats in Brussels) wants to ban just in order to congratulate themselves on their "green credentials". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flytilbroke Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 20 Million Lipo Batteries 800 Million Zinc Batteries 30 Million Lion Batteries. Per year, needing disposed of. Not many accepted by the local waste disposal. so get put in THE BIN. For disposal by the same Authority. Illegaly, in land fill. That's just in the UK. 4000 million individual plastic wrappers, often in plastic display/protection bags, also known as wrappers. Add 200 Million take home Plastic bags, all adds up to a vast tonnage and vast number of cubic Metres going to Land Fill. All of the above use up finite natural resources. Natural resources get scarce, do we then try to mine the landfill sites for what we dumped? How many 44 Tonne Lorry loads equal the 200 Million Carrier Bags that just get dumped? Ps, I just guessed the numbers but I bet they are a conservative guestimate. The Local Council can not often find a means of Re-cycling items by small industrial concerns. We need a National Re-cycling Industry for many items to be able to do this economically. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erfolg Posted December 8, 2009 Author Share Posted December 8, 2009 Flytlbroke What is the basis of disposal of Lipos is illegal if disposed of via normal land fill? It is not at all clear to me what can be reclaimed from a Lipo. Although I do not actually know myself, I suspect that the Lithium metal is in the very low, probably grams per cell. With regard to natural resources. Do we consume more energy in attempted recovery and reprocessing the battery, than the alternative of obtaining lithium as a raw material and processing it? My local authority seems to only want PET as used in carbonated drink containers, all the other polymers go with the general refuse. Although it may be separated later, I see no evidence of this though. At least as a bag all the carbon is locked into a structure, if the environmentalists are correct. Regarding the consumption of resources, all creatures do this as a consequence of existing. Now cows and sheep are coming under the zealots gaze as major contributors to Co2 emitters. Perhaps the human population needs to be stabilised for the benefit of all other inhabitants of this planet. What I really want to know is how the Lipo interacts with the environment, when they are disposed of. As I to want to do the right thing, for the right reasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flytilbroke Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 I think most of us agree with you Erfolg. You need someone qualified in Chemistry, or more likely someone who will search/look for the answer on the Internet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BB Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 Whatever you think can't be re-claimed in europe - because of cost. Look again and don't worry your pretty little heads in a debate. Because someone somewhere in India, or China has found something worth extracting. Is paying someone a low enough wage to work out the difference between a cost & a profit. Problem with us in the west is that we think we know it ALL. Think we have solved every issue over production and consumption. One thing we (the west) has proven itself at being complete crap at is disposal. For at least the last 150 years or so, at any rate. Oh, BTW, earths at the tail end of a glacier period. Warming up is/was/will be inevitable. Current 'green' solutions won't have any significant effect !!!! Sod Copenhagden. BB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erfolg Posted December 9, 2009 Author Share Posted December 9, 2009 Well Basildon, I do not know what to think. All I would like to know, is, what are the issues regarding the end of life issues with Lipo disposal. With regard to global warming, there is a issue of scientific independence. Most of the organisations and persons who are advising governments etc. are recipients of money from the UN and or governments. That includes the MET office (UN modelling money). This should be made plain, vested interest needs to be presented as such. As drug companies are now required to do, with outsourced studies. etc When some of the scientist point out that in the Pliocene period, the temperatures were higher and also in the middle ages, apparently with no ice caps (Pliocene) with low carbon dioxide levels. The retort is, this shows how powerful a driver CO2 actually is. How? I would like a balanced debate by both scientific groups. Not the screams of "there be a heretic, burn the heretic" which appears to be the stance of this government. For me there is a real issue, regarding Lipo waste disposal, which should be examined. It certainly should be based on the idea, that Local authorities, have a battery disposal bin. For Lipos, treating them the same as Zinc or Ni-cad or mercury batteries, may not be appropriate. Regarding waste in general, it does surprise me how archaeologists go scrabbling in waste pits from earlier times, where most of the wastes has been harmlessly incorporated into the general environment. This includes steel and brass workings. Should we do our best to protect the environment to acceptable levels, of courser. Should we take a FoE approach of absolutism, not in my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myron Beaumont Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 It was a damn sight hotter when the planet first formed & when life began wasn't it ? We're still here ! What does a couple of degrees or so matter in the Newcastle area? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flytilbroke Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 Chemical reasons aside. The Local Authorities normally have By-laws which they apply even when there are no National Laws. I receive a List of DO NOT from my Council which is quite extensive and which excludes the disposal of batteries to land fill. I was Partly instrumental in getting our Council to accept Lead Acid Batteries for disposal. This took nearly ten years, so I ended up with a collection of them until they accepted the common sense of central disposal. They have not to my knowledge relented on non-acceptance of any other form of Battery. They still say it is illegal to dispose of them in Landfill/household waste. Talk to your local Council for thier regulation and demand their reason if they refuse to accept disposal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Beeney Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 Erfolg, From memory, there is a European Battery Directive, which I think came into force in 2006, which states that ALL battery material, from ALL batteries, must be recycled. I have a feeling that somewhere I’ve seen a note to say that it will apply in GB around 2012. But I stand to be corrected. I’ve always been slightly concerned about disposal of waste batteries which is why I only throw them away, both my own and other people’s, when it is absolutely necessary. It’s possible that far too many cells get scrapped before they are scrap! Because we don’t have the proper disposal facilities locally, around the time when the Directive was looming, I called in at our local Town Hall, to get some instructions. I spoke to the lady on the front desk and then I soon found myself talking on the phone to the Lady in Charge. To give her credit, she did understand the problem, and she knew all about the Directive, but her words were along the lines of; “ Forget batteries. We’ve still got a mountain of freezers and fridges to get rid of. And the Government hasn’t given us any instructions on these yet. The best I can tell you is, wrap them in newspaper and put them in the wheelie bin.” As far as I know, this still stands, at least in our neck of the woods. I will go and make some more enquires. I have to say, though, we can dispose of lead acid car batteries ok. I think this Directive means that no material, from any battery, should ever find it’s way into landfill. Nice thought, but the implementation might be a trifle more difficult! To get all the details, such as why this is so etc. you would have to read it. How much time have you got? Also a bit of a guess, but I think by now battery manufacturing might be the biggest industry in the world. This could be the number one consumer item. For interest, batteries are produced from perhaps less than 0.1 Wh up to in excess of 10 MWh. Not many other products have a size range of this calibre. With regard to the carbon issue, the best unbiased report I can find is that we are now at the end of a warm inter-glacial period and a new ice age could start at any time. Although I’m not stocking up on thermal underwear just yet. Also on the carbon and temperature issue, it seems that general climatic temperature rises precede carbon dioxide level increases. In other words, the increase in temperature might be responsible for the carbon increase. Which perhaps turns the debate on it’s head, to a very small extent. Didn’t Al Gore get his famous graph inverted and someone had to point out the fact that he was reading it somewhat inside out? This discussion? will rage for many years to come, I guess. I’m off to fit some ski’s on the undercarriage of the models! PB PS. I shall use a ruler marked in milli-cubits, just in case we have to consider an Ark, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Beeney Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 Erfolg, From memory, there is a European Battery Directive, which I think came into force in 2006, which states that ALL battery material, from ALL batteries, must be recycled. I have a feeling that somewhere I’ve seen a note to say that it will apply in GB around 2012. But I stand to be corrected. I’ve always been slightly concerned about disposal of waste batteries which is why I only throw them away, both my own and other people’s, when it is absolutely necessary. It’s possible that far too many cells get scrapped before they are scrap! Because we don’t have the proper disposal facilities locally, around the time when the Directive was looming, I called in at our local Town Hall, to get some instructions. I spoke to the lady on the front desk and then I soon found myself talking on the phone to the Lady in Charge. To give her credit, she did understand the problem, and she knew all about the Directive, but her words were along the lines of; “ Forget batteries. We’ve still got a mountain of freezers and fridges to get rid of. And the Government hasn’t given us any instructions on these yet. The best I can tell you is, wrap them in newspaper and put them in the wheelie bin.” As far as I know, this still stands, at least in our neck of the woods. I will go and make some more enquires. I have to say, though, we can dispose of lead acid car batteries ok. I think this Directive means that no material, from any battery, should ever find it’s way into landfill. Nice thought, but the implementation might be a trifle more difficult! To get all the details, such as why this is so etc. you would have to read it. How much time have you got? Also a bit of a guess, but I think by now battery manufacturing might be the biggest industry in the world. This could be the number one consumer item. For interest, batteries are produced from perhaps less than 0.1 Wh up to in excess of 10 MWh. Not many other products have a size range of this calibre. With regard to the carbon issue, the best unbiased report I can find is that we are now at the end of a warm inter-glacial period and a new ice age could start at any time. Although I’m not stocking up on thermal underwear just yet. Also on the carbon and temperature issue, it seems that general climatic temperature rises precede carbon dioxide level increases. In other words, the increase in temperature might be responsible for the carbon increase. Which perhaps turns the debate on it’s head, to a very small extent. Didn’t Al Gore get his famous graph inverted and someone had to point out the fact that he was reading it somewhat inside out? This discussion? will rage for many years to come, I guess. I’m off to fit some ski’s on the undercarriage of the models! PB PS. I shall use a ruler marked in milli-cubits, just in case we have to consider an Ark, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Beeney Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 Houston, we have a problem. The system has gone to rapid fire..... Could someone delete two posts, please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erfolg Posted December 10, 2009 Author Share Posted December 10, 2009 Peter I have done as suggested and looked up the abridged directive. As usual the EU, has identified the objectives, the implementation and gold plating or otherwise is up to individual countries. From the directive, it appears that some NIcads can still be sold, within the idea of the directive. It appears that the objective/s are particularly directed at the heavy metals, Pb, Ni, Cd etc and valuable metals Ag etc. The directive seems to suggest that incineration is the last option after, reprocessing, landfill. Any way this is a further truncation of the abridged ideas. The aim is to cut the amount of hazardous substances - in particular, mercury, cadmium and lead - dumped in the environment; The Directive applies to all types of batteries and accumulators, apart from those used in equipment to protect Member States' security or for military purposes. The Directive prohibits: · batteries and accumulators, whether or not incorporated in appliances, containing more than 0.0005% by weight of mercury (except for button cells, which must have a mercury content of less than 2% by weight); · portable batteries and accumulators, including those incorporated in appliances, with a cadmium content by weight of more than 0.002% (except for portable batteries and accumulators for use in emergency and alarm systems, medical equipment or cordless power tools). Collection rates of at least 25% and 45% have to be reached by 26 September 2012 and 26 September 2016 respectively. Member States also have to ensure that, from 26 September 2009 at the latest, batteries and accumulators that have been collected are treated and recycled using the best available techniques. Recycling must exclude energy recovery. The recycling of battery and accumulator content to produce similar products or for other purposes has to reach the following levels by 26 September 2011: · at least 65% by average weight of lead-acid batteries and accumulators, including the recycling of the lead content to the highest degree that is technically feasible; · 75% by average weight of nickel-cadmium batteries and accumulators, including the recycling of the lead content to the highest degree that is technically feasible; · at least 50% by average weight of other battery and accumulator waste. If there is no viable end market, or if a detailed assessment of environmental, economic and social impact concludes that recycling is not the best solution, Member States may dispose of batteries and accumulators containing cadmium, mercury or lead in landfills or underground Context Several hundred thousand tonnes of industrial and portable batteries and accumulators are placed on the Community market every year. A wide range of metals are used, from mercury, lead and cadmium to nickel, copper, zinc, manganese and lithium. Batteries of the "button" type or those composed of elements of the "button" type are excluded from Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Erfolg Posted December 11, 2009 Author Share Posted December 11, 2009 I have now had time to think about the EU directive. One aspect actually surprised me.In that Nicads have not been banned by the EU if they are used in power tool, it also seems that in principal some users such as hospital and emergency equipment with portable batteries, are also excempt. So it does seem that I may be able to obtain quite legally a battery pack for my Cordless Drill. If not here, somewhere in the EU. But returning to Lipo disposal, its seems that EU regulation, does not require the Local Authority to reprocess all batteries with heavy metals. Although not identified by myself the concept of If there is no viable end market, or if a detailed assessment of environmental, economic and social impact concludes that recycling is not the best solution can be in principal applied to Lipos. Which could suggest that they could go with the general refuse. That is if the government does not seek to Gold Plate disposal. The most significant risk appears to come from unregulated combustion or possiblyto any water if treated in water. After both burning or reacting with water, I would expect the Lithium becoming a Oxide. In the case of burning I would also guess, if not undertaken under controlled conditions, there would also be Dioxins, would there be any significant affect to the water if reacted with water? I guess a chemist, will at some point look at the range of feasible reactions and the implications. But the big issues is are these reactions significant, and will HM Government take a balanced view or will Local Authorities jobs worths make a Executive Decision, which I am sure they are well qualified and informed to make. So was the original BMFA advice on balance correct? or is the subsequent advice correct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Peter 'Ivanna Crashalot' Savage Posted December 11, 2009 Share Posted December 11, 2009 All of our lipo cells are just sitting in a bucket of salt water in the garden, they will just stay there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Erfolg Posted December 11, 2009 Author Share Posted December 11, 2009 Peter As I think you probably know, oxides are pretty stable. I would guess that it possible to argue that it no longer is a battery. As there is no potential to produce a current, its a wrapper containing a lithium oxide. So it mat be permissible to put the assembly into the general refuse. I wonder what the definition of a battery is the old tin can, acid assembly of school days, produced a current. Yet the can go into the tin can bin and the acid if say acetic acid can go down the household drain? Hmmm does make me think! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Peter 'Ivanna Crashalot' Savage Posted December 11, 2009 Share Posted December 11, 2009 Meh it'll be alright Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Peter Beeney Posted December 11, 2009 Share Posted December 11, 2009 Erfolg, When I first saw the original assessment of the Directive I thought it was fairly unambiguous. The fact that all battery materials should be recycled seems to be a good idea, there would then not, in theory anyway, a lot of waste to dispose of. But, there was also some speculation as how some of the material could be recycled. However, since then, it seems to have been watered down a tiddly bit. We still don’t appear to have a recycling facility locally, for small cells, but I’ll have to confirm that at High Level within the Local Authorities hierarchy. I know you can still obtain nicads, maybe the fact the military also still use them, I believe, also has a bearing on this. I don’t think they would want to change, nicads are the only cells that pass their extreme specifications, like, continue to operate under all conditions! If this Directive insisted that all nicads were always recycled, and the consumers were given an incentive to recycle, such as a small refund for handing in the old, when buying new, there would never be a need to ban them! When I was working, many years ago, we used to go to the Stores for components and parts. There was always a cardboard box on the counter for the old batteries, almost all nickel cadmium's, which I believe the Storekeeper always sent back to the Distribution Point. This was entirely voluntary, the Storekeeper had a green hat, even then. There was no official procedure, i.e. from the Industry, and there probably still isn’t. There is a long way to go on this battery recycling lark, the sheer scale of production is mind boggling, if you start to think about it. And with the level of our activities being on an ever steepening exponential curve, it must surely only ever get bigger and bigger, at least in the short term. Any advice, for instance about lithium’s, might be limited to each individual case. If you haven’t got a recycling facility, you haven’t got much choice. How far would you, or perhaps, should you, travel to find one? I did mention this before but I think it’s very important to really make sure the cells are duff before you throw them away. Having said that, lithium’s particularly, once they appear to need a zimmer frame it is definitely the cell that is exhausted. Sometimes they seem to fail quite quickly, and so far I’ve been unable to find a lasting recovery technique. What’s all the ‘no potential to produce a current‘ bit? Is this Erfolg’s version of Ohm’s Law, I ask myself, which he calls Bin’s Law? Would this be a case S = R/T, where S = Scrap, R = Rubbish and T = Tip? Only kidding! PB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Erfolg Posted December 11, 2009 Author Share Posted December 11, 2009 Peter I would anticipate that any recycling of heavy metals was not undertaken by any local authority. In principal I would expect that these devices would be dealt with by dedicated, regulated processing plants with appropriate facilities, being required to monitor and record the process with suitable filtration and controlled disposal routes. As metal processing tends to be potentially hazardous at many levels, including the resulting waste streams. It is clear that the EU, recognises the concept "where practicably viable". In this instance it is clear that it is recognised that all arisings can be practicably and economically reprocessed. Unfortunately the present government has a very poor record of recognising practicality, particularly if some one other than themselves will be paying. Many requirements as implemented can be viewed as a means of raising additional revenue by the creation of a tax stream. Hence the Gold Plating, relative to many other EU states implementing the same directive. I will be surprised if Lipos can be economically reprocessed. Particularly if we consider energy and carbon emissions Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Peter Beeney Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 Erfolg, Yes, very sorry, my apologies, I confused the issue somewhat. Please read ‘collection point’ where I’ve said ‘recycling facility.’ I agree, I would certainly see the actual working plant as being capable of dealing with a very large area. Ideally, all the components that make up the cell would be reused in one form or another, but we might not have got quite to that stage yet! Technically, we may be able to do this now, perhaps, but until all the economic and political minds start to work in accord, it may be difficult to implement. Again, I agree entirely about your government statement etc. The author of the ‘Chackfield Chat’ letter does have such a collection point. Unfortunately, we don’t. I wonder what the percentage of ‘do have’s’ is to ‘don’t have’? I’ve no idea. I can only hope that, eventually, there will be one everywhere! I don’t have the latest global consumption figures of, say, lithium polymer cells, but it may be that aeromodellers only account for a small fraction of the total. My laptop uses Li-Pos. How many laptops are there? And mobile phones? The figure may surprise even the most optimistic of guesstimates. One day it may be necessarily economic to reprocess indeed almost everything. Whilst in the meantime, the carbon debate continues apace, with everyone talking and nobody listening. But that’s only me just being cynical again. PB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Erfolg Posted December 12, 2009 Author Share Posted December 12, 2009 Peter Having worked in a particular reprocessing industry for some time (about 33 years). I became a little cautious of the claims made regarding the value of reprocessing. Often the reprocessing created some very significant problems, which were all now concentrated. Disposal becoming an issue, yet the direct disposal of the very valuable materials within there original containers/wrapper, could be argued as better for the environment and economically attractive, this is what the USA does. Once embarked on the reprocessing path, very careful monitoring of all aspects needs to undertaken, as vested interest often becomes the driving force, rather than societies best interest. It also became apparent if the case is marginal on paper, it is best do nothing, as reality is always more difficult. Also zealots need to feared, as reality will not be allowed to get in the way of their position, what ever the science or economic cases indicate. With our Lipos, I remain to be convinced that there is any true value in attempting to recycle. As i suspect the amount of lithium in each cell is trivial. Yet the amount of resources required to recover both the Lithium and or the wrapper being far greater. So at present I will drop in a small quantity of water to react the lithium and dispose of the package until, better scientific/economic advice indicates a more constructive means of disposal. I am an advocate of each of us thinking about what is the best solution rather than just implictly trusting, convention or government diktat. Although I have to accept the requirements of law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Peter Beeney Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 Erfolg, I have to say, that in the main, that I would very much agree with everything you say. Certainly, if you try and consider ALL the aspects of a certain situation, sometimes it soon becomes apparent that it’s not what it seems at first glance. But, by the same token, sometimes it’s also difficult to actually anticipate all the aspects clearly, frequently they can be very well hidden. As far as lithium batteries are concerned, I understand it’s just lithium ions used in the manufacture of the cells. After the early experiments, lithium metal was considered too dangerous. So the landfill solution may be, exactly as you say, the best way forward. But, if we pick up on your ‘I am an advocate of each of us thinking about what is the best solution,’ words, though, then we can look at it from yet another angle.. ..or two. And also try to consider all the aspects... One topic that is raised nowadays is that of raw materials. Or rather, the lack of them. In the case of our lowly lithium’s, all the time the basic stuff is lying around, it’s fine and dandy. As it gets harder to find, it must consequently get more expensive. At some point, there is surely a cross over point, where it becomes a viable option to at least consider recycling. So the question I might ask is this: ‘Is it better to practise recycling first, before we we reach that point, or wait until we’ve passed it?’ I suspect this is already a preoccupation in some quarters, relating to some consumer items. Also it may be a more serious line of thought for the longer term. Then again, looking at it from yet another view, perhaps someone might decide they have a very vested interest in getting lithium’s banned from landfill. One way of doing this would be to get them banned from production. You may well feel this is far-fetched, and you may well be right, but pressure groups can be very persuasive, and successful! In your words, vested interest can become the driving force. Could this be interpreted as commercial pressure? One way of countering this might be not to send the batteries to landfill in the first place. So the question I might ask is this: ‘Is it better to practise recycling first, before we we reach that point, or wait until we’ve passed it?’ Had this happened with respect to nicads, then maybe they would still be freely available. For some applications, nicads still want a lot of whacking! Of course, there are yet more angles we might also want to check out, such as - what is the next technology… fuel cells, maybe… or perhaps a super cell with recycling specifically in mind. As is done with many other products these days, I believe. Just some idle thoughts about an ever ongoing subject. PB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Erfolg Posted December 14, 2009 Author Share Posted December 14, 2009 Hmm The question of recycling, in my own mind is quite simple. Do we consume more of the resources we value in recycling, than are won in the recycling process. My own experience suggests, that governments best roll is in framing the environment in which business operate, than any direct involvement. A indication of failure of a policy is when the government is required by one way or another , to part of fully finance the policy. The world I worked in was somewhat "Alice in Wonderland" to those who worked in the private sector. Very difficult to logically comprehend. There are instances, when obvious that the concept was totally without merit, the project would move forward, until a particular political goal was achieved. It would then be mothballed. The best recommendation for recycling were the "Rag & bone Man" and the local"Scrapyard". We need more of this type of activity, it works at all levels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply Share More sharing options... Followers 0
Erfolg Posted December 11, 2009 Author Share Posted December 11, 2009 I have now had time to think about the EU directive. One aspect actually surprised me.In that Nicads have not been banned by the EU if they are used in power tool, it also seems that in principal some users such as hospital and emergency equipment with portable batteries, are also excempt. So it does seem that I may be able to obtain quite legally a battery pack for my Cordless Drill. If not here, somewhere in the EU. But returning to Lipo disposal, its seems that EU regulation, does not require the Local Authority to reprocess all batteries with heavy metals. Although not identified by myself the concept of If there is no viable end market, or if a detailed assessment of environmental, economic and social impact concludes that recycling is not the best solution can be in principal applied to Lipos. Which could suggest that they could go with the general refuse. That is if the government does not seek to Gold Plate disposal. The most significant risk appears to come from unregulated combustion or possiblyto any water if treated in water. After both burning or reacting with water, I would expect the Lithium becoming a Oxide. In the case of burning I would also guess, if not undertaken under controlled conditions, there would also be Dioxins, would there be any significant affect to the water if reacted with water? I guess a chemist, will at some point look at the range of feasible reactions and the implications. But the big issues is are these reactions significant, and will HM Government take a balanced view or will Local Authorities jobs worths make a Executive Decision, which I am sure they are well qualified and informed to make. So was the original BMFA advice on balance correct? or is the subsequent advice correct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter 'Ivanna Crashalot' Savage Posted December 11, 2009 Share Posted December 11, 2009 All of our lipo cells are just sitting in a bucket of salt water in the garden, they will just stay there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erfolg Posted December 11, 2009 Author Share Posted December 11, 2009 Peter As I think you probably know, oxides are pretty stable. I would guess that it possible to argue that it no longer is a battery. As there is no potential to produce a current, its a wrapper containing a lithium oxide. So it mat be permissible to put the assembly into the general refuse. I wonder what the definition of a battery is the old tin can, acid assembly of school days, produced a current. Yet the can go into the tin can bin and the acid if say acetic acid can go down the household drain? Hmmm does make me think! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter 'Ivanna Crashalot' Savage Posted December 11, 2009 Share Posted December 11, 2009 Meh it'll be alright Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Beeney Posted December 11, 2009 Share Posted December 11, 2009 Erfolg, When I first saw the original assessment of the Directive I thought it was fairly unambiguous. The fact that all battery materials should be recycled seems to be a good idea, there would then not, in theory anyway, a lot of waste to dispose of. But, there was also some speculation as how some of the material could be recycled. However, since then, it seems to have been watered down a tiddly bit. We still don’t appear to have a recycling facility locally, for small cells, but I’ll have to confirm that at High Level within the Local Authorities hierarchy. I know you can still obtain nicads, maybe the fact the military also still use them, I believe, also has a bearing on this. I don’t think they would want to change, nicads are the only cells that pass their extreme specifications, like, continue to operate under all conditions! If this Directive insisted that all nicads were always recycled, and the consumers were given an incentive to recycle, such as a small refund for handing in the old, when buying new, there would never be a need to ban them! When I was working, many years ago, we used to go to the Stores for components and parts. There was always a cardboard box on the counter for the old batteries, almost all nickel cadmium's, which I believe the Storekeeper always sent back to the Distribution Point. This was entirely voluntary, the Storekeeper had a green hat, even then. There was no official procedure, i.e. from the Industry, and there probably still isn’t. There is a long way to go on this battery recycling lark, the sheer scale of production is mind boggling, if you start to think about it. And with the level of our activities being on an ever steepening exponential curve, it must surely only ever get bigger and bigger, at least in the short term. Any advice, for instance about lithium’s, might be limited to each individual case. If you haven’t got a recycling facility, you haven’t got much choice. How far would you, or perhaps, should you, travel to find one? I did mention this before but I think it’s very important to really make sure the cells are duff before you throw them away. Having said that, lithium’s particularly, once they appear to need a zimmer frame it is definitely the cell that is exhausted. Sometimes they seem to fail quite quickly, and so far I’ve been unable to find a lasting recovery technique. What’s all the ‘no potential to produce a current‘ bit? Is this Erfolg’s version of Ohm’s Law, I ask myself, which he calls Bin’s Law? Would this be a case S = R/T, where S = Scrap, R = Rubbish and T = Tip? Only kidding! PB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erfolg Posted December 11, 2009 Author Share Posted December 11, 2009 Peter I would anticipate that any recycling of heavy metals was not undertaken by any local authority. In principal I would expect that these devices would be dealt with by dedicated, regulated processing plants with appropriate facilities, being required to monitor and record the process with suitable filtration and controlled disposal routes. As metal processing tends to be potentially hazardous at many levels, including the resulting waste streams. It is clear that the EU, recognises the concept "where practicably viable". In this instance it is clear that it is recognised that all arisings can be practicably and economically reprocessed. Unfortunately the present government has a very poor record of recognising practicality, particularly if some one other than themselves will be paying. Many requirements as implemented can be viewed as a means of raising additional revenue by the creation of a tax stream. Hence the Gold Plating, relative to many other EU states implementing the same directive. I will be surprised if Lipos can be economically reprocessed. Particularly if we consider energy and carbon emissions Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Beeney Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 Erfolg, Yes, very sorry, my apologies, I confused the issue somewhat. Please read ‘collection point’ where I’ve said ‘recycling facility.’ I agree, I would certainly see the actual working plant as being capable of dealing with a very large area. Ideally, all the components that make up the cell would be reused in one form or another, but we might not have got quite to that stage yet! Technically, we may be able to do this now, perhaps, but until all the economic and political minds start to work in accord, it may be difficult to implement. Again, I agree entirely about your government statement etc. The author of the ‘Chackfield Chat’ letter does have such a collection point. Unfortunately, we don’t. I wonder what the percentage of ‘do have’s’ is to ‘don’t have’? I’ve no idea. I can only hope that, eventually, there will be one everywhere! I don’t have the latest global consumption figures of, say, lithium polymer cells, but it may be that aeromodellers only account for a small fraction of the total. My laptop uses Li-Pos. How many laptops are there? And mobile phones? The figure may surprise even the most optimistic of guesstimates. One day it may be necessarily economic to reprocess indeed almost everything. Whilst in the meantime, the carbon debate continues apace, with everyone talking and nobody listening. But that’s only me just being cynical again. PB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erfolg Posted December 12, 2009 Author Share Posted December 12, 2009 Peter Having worked in a particular reprocessing industry for some time (about 33 years). I became a little cautious of the claims made regarding the value of reprocessing. Often the reprocessing created some very significant problems, which were all now concentrated. Disposal becoming an issue, yet the direct disposal of the very valuable materials within there original containers/wrapper, could be argued as better for the environment and economically attractive, this is what the USA does. Once embarked on the reprocessing path, very careful monitoring of all aspects needs to undertaken, as vested interest often becomes the driving force, rather than societies best interest. It also became apparent if the case is marginal on paper, it is best do nothing, as reality is always more difficult. Also zealots need to feared, as reality will not be allowed to get in the way of their position, what ever the science or economic cases indicate. With our Lipos, I remain to be convinced that there is any true value in attempting to recycle. As i suspect the amount of lithium in each cell is trivial. Yet the amount of resources required to recover both the Lithium and or the wrapper being far greater. So at present I will drop in a small quantity of water to react the lithium and dispose of the package until, better scientific/economic advice indicates a more constructive means of disposal. I am an advocate of each of us thinking about what is the best solution rather than just implictly trusting, convention or government diktat. Although I have to accept the requirements of law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Beeney Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 Erfolg, I have to say, that in the main, that I would very much agree with everything you say. Certainly, if you try and consider ALL the aspects of a certain situation, sometimes it soon becomes apparent that it’s not what it seems at first glance. But, by the same token, sometimes it’s also difficult to actually anticipate all the aspects clearly, frequently they can be very well hidden. As far as lithium batteries are concerned, I understand it’s just lithium ions used in the manufacture of the cells. After the early experiments, lithium metal was considered too dangerous. So the landfill solution may be, exactly as you say, the best way forward. But, if we pick up on your ‘I am an advocate of each of us thinking about what is the best solution,’ words, though, then we can look at it from yet another angle.. ..or two. And also try to consider all the aspects... One topic that is raised nowadays is that of raw materials. Or rather, the lack of them. In the case of our lowly lithium’s, all the time the basic stuff is lying around, it’s fine and dandy. As it gets harder to find, it must consequently get more expensive. At some point, there is surely a cross over point, where it becomes a viable option to at least consider recycling. So the question I might ask is this: ‘Is it better to practise recycling first, before we we reach that point, or wait until we’ve passed it?’ I suspect this is already a preoccupation in some quarters, relating to some consumer items. Also it may be a more serious line of thought for the longer term. Then again, looking at it from yet another view, perhaps someone might decide they have a very vested interest in getting lithium’s banned from landfill. One way of doing this would be to get them banned from production. You may well feel this is far-fetched, and you may well be right, but pressure groups can be very persuasive, and successful! In your words, vested interest can become the driving force. Could this be interpreted as commercial pressure? One way of countering this might be not to send the batteries to landfill in the first place. So the question I might ask is this: ‘Is it better to practise recycling first, before we we reach that point, or wait until we’ve passed it?’ Had this happened with respect to nicads, then maybe they would still be freely available. For some applications, nicads still want a lot of whacking! Of course, there are yet more angles we might also want to check out, such as - what is the next technology… fuel cells, maybe… or perhaps a super cell with recycling specifically in mind. As is done with many other products these days, I believe. Just some idle thoughts about an ever ongoing subject. PB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erfolg Posted December 14, 2009 Author Share Posted December 14, 2009 Hmm The question of recycling, in my own mind is quite simple. Do we consume more of the resources we value in recycling, than are won in the recycling process. My own experience suggests, that governments best roll is in framing the environment in which business operate, than any direct involvement. A indication of failure of a policy is when the government is required by one way or another , to part of fully finance the policy. The world I worked in was somewhat "Alice in Wonderland" to those who worked in the private sector. Very difficult to logically comprehend. There are instances, when obvious that the concept was totally without merit, the project would move forward, until a particular political goal was achieved. It would then be mothballed. The best recommendation for recycling were the "Rag & bone Man" and the local"Scrapyard". We need more of this type of activity, it works at all levels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts